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The Subjectivity of Taste

moki

el Presidente
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
Messages
9,418
Location
Rochester, NY USA
This is about wine, but it really applies to anything taste-related, such as cigars...

The Subjectivity of Wine

The rules of the wine tasting were simple. Twenty five of the best wines under twelve dollars were nominated by independent wine stores in the Boston area. The Globe then assembled a panel of wine professionals to select their top picks in the red and white category. All of the wines were tasted blind.

The result is a beguiling list of delicious plonk. But I was most interested in just how little overlap there was between the different critics. In fact, only one wine - the 2006 Willm Alsace Pinot Blanc from France - managed to make the list of every critic. Most of the wines were personal favorites, and appeared on only one of the lists.

So much for objectivity. But results like this shouldn't be surprising. I've blogged about this before, but it's such a cool experiment that it's worth repeating. In 2001, Frederic Brochet, of the University of Bordeaux, conducted two separate and very mischievous experiments. In the first test, Brochet invited 57 wine experts and asked them to give their impressions of what looked like two glasses of red and white wine. The wines were actually the same white wine, one of which had been tinted red with food coloring. But that didn't stop the experts from describing the "red" wine in language typically used to describe red wines. One expert praised its "jamminess," while another enjoyed its "crushed red fruit." Not a single one noticed it was actually a white wine.

The second test Brochet conducted was even more damning. He took a middling Bordeaux and served it in two different bottles. One bottle was a fancy grand-cru. The other bottle was an ordinary vin du table. Despite the fact that they were actually being served the exact same wine, the experts gave the differently labeled bottles nearly opposite ratings. The grand cru was "agreeable, woody, complex, balanced and rounded," while the vin du table was "weak, short, light, flat and faulty". Forty experts said the wine with the fancy label was worth drinking, while only 12 said the cheap wine was.

What these experiments neatly demonstrate is that the taste of a wine, like the taste of everything, is not merely the sum of our inputs, and cannot be solved in a bottom-up fashion. It cannot be deduced by beginning with our simplest sensations and extrapolating upwards. When we taste a wine, we aren't simply tasting the wine. This is because what we experience is not what we sense. Rather, experience is what happens when our senses are interpreted by our subjective brain, which brings to the moment its entire library of personal memories and idiosyncratic desires. As the philosopher Donald Davidson argued, it is ultimately impossible to distinguish between a subjective contribution to knowledge that comes from our selves (what he calls our "scheme") and an objective contribution that comes from the outside world ("the content"). Instead, in Davidson's influential epistemology, the "organizing system and something waiting to be organized" are hopelessly interdependent. Without our subjectivity we could never decipher our sensations, and without our sensations we would have nothing to be subjective about. In other words, we shouldn't be surprised that different people like different bottles of cheap wine.

PS. A lot of this material appears in my book, so check it out if you want to learn more about Escoffier, olfaction, umami and subjectivity.
 
The dying the same white wine white, and putting the same middling wine in a fancy bottle remind me of taste tests I've done where I've switched the bands on cigars... with hilarious and predictable results :)
 
Really cool Moki, and I agree with you 100%

*edit* And you did mean to say dye the same white wine red correct? :sign:
 
Interesting read.

Reminds me somewhat of the so called Grey Goose Vodka test where everyone picked Smirnoff as the best tasting vodka.
 
Tim,

I gotta admit. That's pretty good, my friend. :D

Compact Translation: "If we know or are told (accurately or not) what sensory inputs pertain to (e.g. red wine), these sensory inputs are made to fit schema that we have to represent these things. It is these organizational frameworks for interpreting the world that introduce the "prejudice" effects of Brochet's experimentations*.

More precisely, in Piagetian terms, people will seek to assimilate this sensory input (interpret the red colored white wine as red wine) unless and until they experience cognitive dissonance (when they are told that they had actually tasted white wine colored red). When this occurs, one way people may respond to this dissonance, or conflict between what they previously knew or held to be true and new, contradictory information, is to form an accommodation ("maybe white wines and red wines taste rather similar").

One reasonable way to make use of this understanding is to realize that we can be biased and most likely are and that being attentive to and understanding those biases can lead to a more communicable, less personally insular interpretation of the world and the phenomena in it.

Wilkey

*Brochet's experiments are the latter day wine analogs cigar band swaps Mark Twain was reported to have carried out some 100 years ago.
 
This is a great read and makes perfect sense. Its amazing how much better a cigar tastes in the midst of the right setting (mentally and physically) thus verifying, in my experience, that far more then the actual taste, smell, etc go into the judgment. This is similar to the Placebo effect, the mind is a powerful thing.

The famous Davidoff caper is a great example.
 
This extends far beyond experts. "Experts" are typically held up for scrutiny because of their credentials or credibility (both formal and informal). This makes them public and obvious targets. The lesson, I presume, from your taste test challenges is that all are subject to prejudicial interpretation. You just seek to be the agent that precipitates the state of cognitive dissonance and disequilibrium leading to accommodation. I'm down with that.

It is possible to paraphrase by overcompaction and lose essential elements of the ideas presented.

Wilkey
 
Tim,

I gotta admit. That's pretty good, my friend. :D

There's some sorta saying somewhere about a blind Tig and an acorn... :p

All I know about the OP is that most of the blind cigars tastings I've done have surprised me in one way or another.
 
All I know about the OP is that most of the blind cigars tastings I've done have surprised me in one way or another.
Same here, Tim. I thought that 1970's Monte 3 you gave me tasted like a Rocky Patel 1990. :whistling:

Wilkey
 
moki, good stuff, and I agree. I have a culinary degree and have worked for various nationally recognized blowhard megalomaniacal chefs. Throughout all of this training, taste and tasting have been drilled into my approach to food; therefore wine, cigars, etc. One trait I noticed in all the great cooks I have had the pleasure to work with is the ability to quickly assimilate the flavor, aroma, texture and look of the preparation. The triat these cooks share is exprerience. Its sort of like the Old Spice commercial with Bruce Campbell. They have the ability to mentally separate the flavor from the item while simultaneously keeping the big picture in mind. For example, the English pea puree seems flat. "Needs acid to liven, no, acid + green chlorophyll = brown, needs citrus, not juice-juice is an acid, needs lime zest, fine lime zest, needs to be Microplaned ." This is experience, of which is all subjective. In order to experience something it must be sensed. If it is sensed how can it be objective if were are involved in its sensing? So how can anything be objective if we are involved? Davidson's "organizing model" (as introduced to in your post for the first time) seems to answer that question-it is impossible! Unless, of course we can have an objective experience. Now we are talking some serious Zen shit.
 
Speaking of subjective taste... while I've never seen a merkin mullet, I can safely say that it'd be the ultimate in tastelessness! :)
 
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