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HYPER-AGED HABANOS
- Thread starter alpi57
- Start date
I realize that I didn't address your title question. I really don't have any experience with extensive aging of Habanos. My stock extends back as far as 1998 but I've smoked a few cigars from the 80's and 70's. I honestly cannot say that the older cigars I've had were better, just different.
I think that at the heart of this question lies cultural values regarding the role and nature of cigars and their smoking. Additionally, resources and environmental conditions have been suggested to be factors.
Pushing cigars for aging certainly could be construed as a good thing by marketing because it entails the putting up of quantities of stock above and beyond what can be readily smoked. In effect, the buyers are boosting volume by taking on large amounts of aging inventory.
Wilkey
I think that at the heart of this question lies cultural values regarding the role and nature of cigars and their smoking. Additionally, resources and environmental conditions have been suggested to be factors.
Pushing cigars for aging certainly could be construed as a good thing by marketing because it entails the putting up of quantities of stock above and beyond what can be readily smoked. In effect, the buyers are boosting volume by taking on large amounts of aging inventory.
Wilkey
At the risk of exposing my ignorance I wanted to comment just based on common sense from the previous postings. As I understand it, the aging process is a chemical process and in that chemical process (as in others) one or more ingredients gets used/transformed/destroyed whatever verb you want to use.
As such, it seems that each cigar blend will have its own limitation on aging. When it runs out of ingredients (in sufficient quantity) to support the chemical change it will first slow down and then eventually, stop.
So some blends may age for longer periods than others, all other factors being equal. So a generalization of 5-7 years may be an expression of the average ageing time before the components become sufficiently depleted to begin slowing the process. Obviously if this is the average, some smokes age much longer and others much shorter periods. It may never fully stop in our lifetime, just become undetectable.
Bob
DogWatch Cigar Radio
www.dogwatchsocialclub.com
As such, it seems that each cigar blend will have its own limitation on aging. When it runs out of ingredients (in sufficient quantity) to support the chemical change it will first slow down and then eventually, stop.
So some blends may age for longer periods than others, all other factors being equal. So a generalization of 5-7 years may be an expression of the average ageing time before the components become sufficiently depleted to begin slowing the process. Obviously if this is the average, some smokes age much longer and others much shorter periods. It may never fully stop in our lifetime, just become undetectable.
Bob
DogWatch Cigar Radio
www.dogwatchsocialclub.com
Bob,
You perceive too well to consider yourself ignorant on this topic.
Chemical processes are involved, however, the overall picture is quite a bit more complicated than the simple one-way reaction which is the model most non-chemists hold in mind. In reality, there are aerobic (needs the presence of oxygen to proceed) as well as anaerobic (which can occur in the absence of oxygen) reactions. Some of these complex reactions are often multistep and partially reversible. Furthermore, there are reactions which create good things and others which destroy other good things (meaning primarily flavor components) and these are going on concurrently.
In the ultimate sense, once creation of good things has reached completion and the destruction of these and other good things accelerates, we can say that a cigar has peaked and is declining. However, prior to that point, there can be a number of mini-plateaux where the beneficial reactions have resulted in a particular stage of maturational finesse.
I suspect you are right on target in saying that each blend will have its specific reservoir of starting ingredients. This much cannot be manipulated. I do believe that the point of manipulating aging conditions, though, is to optimize the effect of the beneficial reactions over that of the detrimental reactions. Since oxygen supports both "good-making" and "good-breaking" reactions, reducing the access of the cigars to an excess of fresh air will certainly slow down all the aerobic reactions and change the aerobic/anaerobic balance. I cannot say for sure that one category provides more than the other in terms of good versus bad reactions, but things will definitely happen more slowly in addition to happening differently.
Sorry. Reading back on what I've written gives me the sense that I've made things even more confused.
Wilkey
Dogwatch Dale
Herfcastin' BotL
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2006
- Messages
- 722
Bob,
You perceive too well to consider yourself ignorant on this topic.
Chemical processes are involved, however, the overall picture is quite a bit more complicated than the simple one-way reaction which is the model most non-chemists hold in mind. In reality, there are aerobic (needs the presence of oxygen to proceed) as well as anaerobic (which can occur in the absence of oxygen) reactions. Some of these complex reactions are often multistep and partially reversible. Furthermore, there are reactions which create good things and others which destroy other good things (meaning primarily flavor components) and these are going on concurrently.
In the ultimate sense, once creation of good things has reached completion and the destruction of these and other good things accelerates, we can say that a cigar has peaked and is declining. However, prior to that point, there can be a number of mini-plateaux where the beneficial reactions have resulted in a particular stage of maturational finesse.
I suspect you are right on target in saying that each blend will have its specific reservoir of starting ingredients. This much cannot be manipulated. I do believe that the point of manipulating aging conditions, though, is to optimize the effect of the beneficial reactions over that of the detrimental reactions. Since oxygen supports both "good-making" and "good-breaking" reactions, reducing the access of the cigars to an excess of fresh air will certainly slow down all the aerobic reactions and change the aerobic/anaerobic balance. I cannot say for sure that one category provides more than the other in terms of good versus bad reactions, but things will definitely happen more slowly in addition to happening differently.
Sorry. Reading back on what I've written gives me the sense that I've made things even more confused.
Wilkey
Excellent & enlightening discussion!
The entire thread has been a great read.
Bob,
You perceive too well to consider yourself ignorant on this topic.
Wilkey
You are too kind. Thank you. So out of all of this, we are left with a few points of interest.
1) Denying access to fresh oxygen supply slows ageing.
2) Each cigar ages differently and must be treated as an individual.
So I could surmise that a cigar that has aged for 20 years (with minimal access to fresh air) could be the same as a the same cigar allowed more access to fresh air over 10 years. And also, I can accellarate (to a degree) the ageing process by allowing increased access to fresh air. So opening the humi daily and staring fondly at the sticks MAY allow me to smoke them sooner? But if I deny myself access to fresh air I greatly accelarate my own ageing to the point of extinguishing my current host body.
Now my head is swimming and I feel faint, quick, fresh air and an aged stogie!
Bob,
Would you believe that I've gotten more headspins as a result of thinking about cigars than from smoking cigars?
1) Yes, I think this is a point of consensus insofar as the chemistry if not the ultimate effect on cigar quality. However, keep in mind that reactions are not the only phenomena at play.
2) Again, yes. Over time, serious collectors and students of the well-aged cigar have developed their own heuristics for guidelines on aging. These heuristics would provide the insight needed to make simplifying generalizations and or groupings so that not every single box or vitola would needed to be treated as unique.
I think the conclusion that you drew is reasonable but not entirely correct. A significant reason has to do with one of those other phenomena, evaporation. Evaporation loss of volatiles such as aromatic, light oils is something that is aided by fresh air exchanges and not merely the presence of abundant oxygen. This effect is overlaid on top of any chemical reactions that are occurring in the cigar itself. So, while frequently opening your cooler would indeed provide abundant oxygen, the associated loss of oils and other vital flavor-constituting compounds would be accelerated well beyond normal storage resulting in an imbalance toward the "bad."
In materials testing, we were greatly concerned with identifying conditions that would allow us to accelerate the aging of plastics and rubbers so that we could extrapolate performance many years in advance. Based on some of that knowledge, one way to artificially age cigars might be to expose them to elevated temperatures. It is not at all clear to me how humidity or oxygen would have to be adjusted (either above normal atmospheric or below) to provide the closest analog to natural aging.
The only sure way to put these ideas to the test is to actually subject cigars to these conditions. However, I don't suspect we'd find many people willing to donate cigars to this cause.
Wilkey
Wilkey,
How about a 3-5 year experiment? We can have controls in our own house and have a central location with someone with close to ideal conditions, set forth by all partcipating members, hang on to the test cigars. And we do testing every 6 months. This way we can come to a concensus as oppose to rely on one person's impression.
Let say a group of five people donating a box of a single brand each and hang on to another at home. At 6 months intervals we do testing against our own stock at home that is exposed to daily exposures. Then come up with taste notes and share results. Again, this is a way to come up with a concensus. Plus I think it would be a fun experiment.
Now having said all this I can't wait to hear the comments. It should be interesting.
What do you say?
Jon
How about a 3-5 year experiment? We can have controls in our own house and have a central location with someone with close to ideal conditions, set forth by all partcipating members, hang on to the test cigars. And we do testing every 6 months. This way we can come to a concensus as oppose to rely on one person's impression.
Let say a group of five people donating a box of a single brand each and hang on to another at home. At 6 months intervals we do testing against our own stock at home that is exposed to daily exposures. Then come up with taste notes and share results. Again, this is a way to come up with a concensus. Plus I think it would be a fun experiment.
Now having said all this I can't wait to hear the comments. It should be interesting.
What do you say?
Jon
grateful1
Oh My!
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2006
- Messages
- 19,603
Wilkey,
How about a 3-5 year experiment? We can have controls in our own house and have a central location with someone with close to ideal conditions, set forth by all partcipating members, hang on to the test cigars. And we do testing every 6 months. This way we can come to a concensus as oppose to rely on one persons impression.
Let say a group of five people donating a box of a single brand each and hang on to another at home. At 6 months intervals we do testing against our own stock at home that is exposed to daily exposures. Then come up with taste notes and share results. Again, this is a way to come up with a concensus. Plus I think it would be a fun experiment.
Now having said all this I can't wait to hear the comments. It should be interesting.
What do you say?
Jon
I'm interested in trying this experiment!
We should meet to discuss this further.
For the life of me, I cannot remember what discussion this might be. Can you give me a clue?
Wilkey
Wilkey,
How about a 3-5 year experiment? We can have controls in our own house and have a central location with someone with close to ideal conditions, set forth by all partcipating members, hang on to the test cigars. And we do testing every 6 months. This way we can come to a concensus as oppose to rely on one person's impression.
Let say a group of five people donating a box of a single brand each and hang on to another at home. At 6 months intervals we do testing against our own stock at home that is exposed to daily exposures. Then come up with taste notes and share results. Again, this is a way to come up with a concensus. Plus I think it would be a fun experiment.
Now having said all this I can't wait to hear the comments. It should be interesting.
What do you say?
Jon
Interesting idea, Jon. It would require quite a commitment though.
Wilkey