In The Matter Of Pricing Over MSRP...

[tigger]

The are a couple of threads ongoing in the Hot Cigar Deals room in which there's more than a little tension in the discussion of whether or not sellers should be able to ask their own prices for the cigars they offer for sale.

This thread is for the statement and discussion of opinions as to whether "gouging" is somehow inherently wrong, and whether or not you'd do business with someone who charges inflated prices. Flames or derision toward another poster for a civilly stated opinion will result in the unleashing of some serious Connecticut verbal stompin' on your ass.

My thoughts?

I'm a staunchly free market kinda guy. Particularly when it comes to commerce in nonessential goods. Sellers should be able to ask whatever they like for any particular cigar or cigars. Buyers are free to say yes or no. If said smokes don't sell at the price asked, the seller will either lower it, or remove the cigars from consideration for sale.

Personally, if I see a seller asking too much, too often, I will ignore his future offerings. While I stand strongly behind what I've said above, I don't like greedy people, and have no desire to enrich them.

I'm a big believer in Wilkey's "chart" as well. I will not do business with someone who sells a gift, or buys low from a BOTL interested in helping another out, and attempts to sell at a higher price. That said, I believe that once someone owns a cigar it is his right to dispose of it as he sees fit. It is also my right not to interface with cheesy folk.

 

[cincycigarman]

This should start an interesting conversation...

Edited to add: and maybe this thread will help clarify for us newer folk what the "standard" etiquette is on this. I've always understood the underlying rule to be "sell them for what you paid for them," period.

 

[bfreebern]

I have no problem with people charging what they paid, never have. It's unreasonable for us to expect anything else.

If you don't like the prices, don't buy. It's that simple.

 

[PuroEsq]

The are a couple of threads ongoing in the Hot Cigar Deals room in which there's more than a little tension in the discussion of whether or not sellers should be able to ask their own prices for the cigars they offer for sale.

This thread is for the statement and discussion of opinions as to whether "gouging" is somehow inherently wrong, and whether or not you'd do business with someone who charges inflated prices. Flames or derision toward another poster for a civilly stated opinion will result in the unleashing of some serious Connecticut verbal stompin' on your ass.

My thoughts?

I'm a staunchly free market kinda guy. Particularly when it comes to commerce in nonessential goods. Sellers should be able to ask whatever they like for any particular cigar or cigars. Buyers are free to say yes or no. If said smokes don't sell at the price asked, the seller will either lower it, or remove the cigars from consideration for sale.

Personally, if I see a seller asking too much, too often, I will ignore his future offerings. While I stand strongly behind what I've said above, I don't like greedy people, and have no desire to enrich them.

I'm a big believer in Wilkey's "chart" as well. I will not do business with someone who sells a gift, or buys low from a BOTL interested in helping another out, and attempts to sell at a higher price. That said, I believe that once someone owns a cigar it is his right to dispose of it as he sees fit. It is also my right not to interface with cheesy folk.

I totally agree from a "retail" standpoint. What I mean is that if this is a vendor or business that is selling then they should be able to put whatever price they want on their items.

Now from an individual standpoint here in this and other forums I do not agree. As individual BOTL we should not be trying to "make a buck" off of our felow BOTLs. As long as the cigar(s) were not gifts one should be able to sell or trade them for the value of the cigar or what they paid which ever is lower.

The distinction between the two is that a vendor or business has a right to make money. That is what they are in business for. They buy products generally at wholesale or similar below retail pricing. They then apply some sort of mark-up strategy to their items and attemtp to sell them. This does not apply to BOTL here and at other similar forums.

My 0.02

 

[bfreebern]

Now from an individual standpoint here in this and other forums I do not agree. As individual BOTL we should not be trying to "make a buck" off of our felow BOTLs. As long as the cigar(s) were not gifts one should be able to sell or trade them for the value of the cigar or what they paid which ever is lower.

So if I paid $10 for WOAMs locally, I should sell them for MSRP?

So if I'm never able to get MSRP and I buy them for what I can locally, I'm losing money if I try to sell them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

For example, the guy buying the Opus for everyone. He's buying them locally for $10 (not really sure), but according to your above statement he should charge people MSRP regardless, since it's lower?

 

[PuroEsq]

Now from an individual standpoint here in this and other forums I do not agree. As individual BOTL we should not be trying to "make a buck" off of our felow BOTLs. As long as the cigar(s) were not gifts one should be able to sell or trade them for the value of the cigar or what they paid which ever is lower.

So if I paid $10 for WOAMs locally, I should sell them for MSRP?

So if I'm never able to get MSRP and I buy them for what I can locally, I'm losing money if I try to sell them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

For example, the guy buying the Opus for everyone. He's buying them locally for $10 (not really sure), but according to your above statement he should charge people MSRP regardless, since it's lower?

Yes I see your point.

My point though was mainly that BOTL should not be making money off any transactions, thats all. My scenario however, as you pointed out, was flawed. :blush:

 

[Ginseng]

Wow,

The theorists are having a busy day today. I mean that in a good way Tim and Bobby as I consider myself a CP theorist as well.

On the subject of pass-through selling:
If I pick up sticks with the intent of immediately passing them on to other members as I may not desire them but know that others might, I will attempt to sell them for exactly what I paid and make this abundantly clear. I will also charge my shipping to the buyer as I am in a "middleman" function. Case in point, I recently passed-through a 4-fer of ESG at $20 per which is a few bucks more than the best price some have paid. Last year, I passed-on/split an Opus X22 humidor something or other because although $35 for a chili pepper-shaped cigar was not for me, some folks appreciated the opportunity to purchase a rarity.

On the subject of relieving non-exceptional stock:
If I am clearing room or disposing of cigars that, although of good quality, are not to my taste I will attempt to sell them at my cost or at present retail. I define non-exceptional stock as middle-of the road cigars that are neither rare nor possess any "appreciable" age (under presumed optimal conditions of storage). Frankly, I don't keep track of how much I paid for N.E. stock so typically my asking price will not deviate far from current retail and that's what I'll go with unless the purchase is fresh enough for me to recall. In reality, I will normally discount these items to expedite their sale.

On the subject of dispositioning exceptional stock:
In my opinion, this is the only category for which accommodations for rarity or age could or should be made. Attempting to do so in the above two categories constitutes gouging as I reckon it.

This category includes aged sticks (Opus X Fuente Fuente late 1990's), exceptionally rare items (Fuente Freak of Nature), or combinations (Dunhill Estupendos 1980's). There are no clear or generally accepted guides which will apply to all instances with equal validity. It is with cigars in this category that we most closely approach the free market ideal of which Tim wrote.

Now, I have not even opened the door on other related issues such as differential pricing by geographic region or brick and mortar versus online price guidance. Perhaps someone else will take these up.

As far as "charging what you paid" I think this is a good starting point with the proviso that the seller make it abundantly clear that there is no wish to gouge but that the asking price reflects his actual cost. There is an element of trust underlying this statement and if a member in good standing makes this claim, it is incumbent on the community to at least entertain that this is truthful. Otherwise, what are we saying about this place and how we regard each other? In this case, I would strongly recommend the "if you don't want to buy, then shut the hell up" doctrine.

Well, let's stop there for the time being as I see a few posts have been made since I started writing. I look forward to a lively and constructive discussion.

Wilkey

edit for clarity

 

[bfreebern]

Yes I see your point.

My point though was mainly that BOTL should not be making money off any transactions, thats all. My scenario however, as you pointed out, was flawed. :blush:

Right, that should be the main focus. Sell for what you paid, not any more. If you feel someones prices are out of line, then by all means take your business elsewhere. Many times people get too caught up in MSRP and are blinded to the fact that hardly anyone anymore can buy Anejos or Opus for MSRP. Consider yourself lucky if you can.

 

[TugBoat]

I totally agree from a "retail" standpoint. What I mean is that if this is a vendor or business that is selling then they should be able to put whatever price they want on their items.

Now from an individual standpoint here in this and other forums I do not agree. As individual BOTL we should not be trying to "make a buck" off of our felow BOTLs. As long as the cigar(s) were not gifts one should be able to sell or trade them for the value of the cigar or what they paid which ever is lower.

The distinction between the two is that a vendor or business has a right to make money. That is what they are in business for. They buy products generally at wholesale or similar below retail pricing. They then apply some sort of mark-up strategy to their items and attemtp to sell them. This does not apply to BOTL here and at other similar forums.

My 0.02

I agree, a BOTL should not be trying to make a buck off of a fellow BOTL. Bu that doesn't mean someone won't try. I think they can try to sell them for as much as they want. They could ask for $100 for a dog rocket, but that doesn't mean someone will buy it. It is wrong to try to sell a stick here for more than you paid, but at the same time it's their propert they can charge whatever they want for it, just nobody will buy it.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that everytime I read one of Wilkeys posts the more I like him, The post a couple above me is great.

 

[grateful1]

There's a difference between making money and selling for what was your purchase price.

Up front - in the first post - most people will say it's more than MSRP, and/or that's what they paid.

It's up to the buyer to determine if the seller is credible enough to warrant the price. Credibilty is gained in many ways...but, it's up to buyer to make the determination.

Buyer beware!

On this site<from what I've seen>...people do comment/'police' - either by saying it's a good or bad deal.
​

 

[Ginseng]

I agree, a BOTL should not be trying to make a buck off of a fellow BOTL. Bu that doesn't mean someone won't try. I think they can try to sell them for as much as they want. They could ask for $100 for a dog rocket, but that doesn't mean someone will buy it. It is wrong to try to sell a stick here for more than you paid, but at the same time it's their propert they can charge whatever they want for it, just nobody will buy it.

It is the asking of such an outrageous price that is considered unacceptable and an indicator of ill intent toward other members of the community.

It is not the fact of whether or not someone will pay the asking price.

Wilkey

 

[PuroEsq]

I totally agree from a "retail" standpoint. What I mean is that if this is a vendor or business that is selling then they should be able to put whatever price they want on their items.

Now from an individual standpoint here in this and other forums I do not agree. As individual BOTL we should not be trying to "make a buck" off of our felow BOTLs. As long as the cigar(s) were not gifts one should be able to sell or trade them for the value of the cigar or what they paid which ever is lower.

The distinction between the two is that a vendor or business has a right to make money. That is what they are in business for. They buy products generally at wholesale or similar below retail pricing. They then apply some sort of mark-up strategy to their items and attemtp to sell them. This does not apply to BOTL here and at other similar forums.

My 0.02

I agree, a BOTL should not be trying to make a buck off of a fellow BOTL. Bu that doesn't mean someone won't try. I think they can try to sell them for as much as they want. They could ask for $100 for a dog rocket, but that doesn't mean someone will buy it. It is wrong to try to sell a stick here for more than you paid, but at the same time it's their propert they can charge whatever they want for it, just nobody will buy it.

Being new I will not fault you for that opinion.

The point is that here and at other BBs we are a family. Would you try to make a buck off of your mother? As such we share the wealth and when passing along our good fortune we do not under any circumstances even attemtpt to make a profit at the expense of a fellow BOTL. Your post appers to condone this behavior with a "caveat emptor" attitude. This I believe is wrong.

 

[TugBoat]

I totally agree from a "retail" standpoint. What I mean is that if this is a vendor or business that is selling then they should be able to put whatever price they want on their items.

Now from an individual standpoint here in this and other forums I do not agree. As individual BOTL we should not be trying to "make a buck" off of our felow BOTLs. As long as the cigar(s) were not gifts one should be able to sell or trade them for the value of the cigar or what they paid which ever is lower.

The distinction between the two is that a vendor or business has a right to make money. That is what they are in business for. They buy products generally at wholesale or similar below retail pricing. They then apply some sort of mark-up strategy to their items and attemtp to sell them. This does not apply to BOTL here and at other similar forums.

My 0.02

I agree, a BOTL should not be trying to make a buck off of a fellow BOTL. Bu that doesn't mean someone won't try. I think they can try to sell them for as much as they want. They could ask for $100 for a dog rocket, but that doesn't mean someone will buy it. It is wrong to try to sell a stick here for more than you paid, but at the same time it's their propert they can charge whatever they want for it, just nobody will buy it.

Being new I will not fault you for that opinion.

The point is that here and at other BBs we are a family. Would you try to make a buck off of your mother? As such we share the wealth and when passing along our good fortune we do not under any circumstances even attemtpt to make a profit at the expense of a fellow BOTL. Your post appers to condone this behavior with a "caveat emptor" attitude. This I believe is wrong.

I agree with you, it is wrong to try to make money off of each other. I do not condone this behavior and it should not be done. But at the same time with a free market economy the buyer does need to beware and do their homework before making a purchase, check prices on other sites and ask questions to find out if they think they should pay the price that s being asked.

Once again I agree with you completely that in no way is it ok to try to make money of of a fellow BOTL, but since there is no way for us to know what someone paid for their cigars they may appear to be gouging when they are just asking for what they paid, buyers need to be careful and look around and ask questions.

 

[mmburtch]

MSRP is an interesting phenomenon. In some cases, it is the point at which prices go up, and in others, it is the point from which prices go down. Inherent in the acronym is the word “suggested”, making it in reality, nothing more than a means by which to compare two vendors. In some cases, brand conscious manufacturers make their authorized retailers sign contracts, prohibiting them from advertising prices below MSRP, but still cannot set the price at the retail level.

Cigars, being the topic of discussion here, have a couple of other factors involved in their pricing. As can be seen in the state tax chart listed in the identification threads of the cigar discussion forum, most of the states in the US have imposed a “sin tax” on the purchase of tobacco products. In some cases, it is applied to the wholesale price, and in others, it is applied to the MSRP. In either case, a retailer selling at MSRP after the imposition of this tax will be receiving less gross profit per unit than the retailer who adds the tax to the MSRP and maintains his margin. Most retailers are not going to be nice and pay the sin tax for you, so in those states, forget about MSRP.

Another factor affecting the price of a cigar, is the format of the retailer. In today’s world, the internet allows for large operations to sell at low margins and make their profits on volume. The flip side is the local B&M, whose owner must sell enough product every day to cover the bills. Lack of volume typically forces these establishments to price at or above MSRP just to keep the doors open.

Finally, a third and less visible feature of the market is the concept of “authorized” dealers. This is generally only an issue with higher end cigars. There is a “grey” market out there, whereby non-authorized dealers are able to obtain things such as Opus X. The problem is, they have been touched so many times, that the price reflects it. (A shop down the street from me just got in 10 Reserva D'Chateau, priced them at $40, and claim to have only added a 20% markup from their cost)

I buy from my local B&M when I can and occasionally because I should (karma and all). Ideally, I purchase boxes online and avoid as much tax as possible. The difference is that none of the online dealers called me last week to tell me they had Anejos for me, and then gave me a discount. My local did just that. I paid above MSRP, yet, still feel I paid a fair price. He had two boxes, since I only wanted one, I offered to buy the other for anyone on this board that wanted it. I offered it at what I could pick them up for, cost less my discount plus sales tax. The price was well above MSRP. A member of this board still asked me to buy them for him. He wanted them, and to him, the price was acceptable.

MSRP is a guide. In a free market society, supply and demand will set prices. If it is overpriced for the value it brings to me, I will not buy it. The same holds true for under priced. “If it’s too good to be true it must not be”, right?

 

[golfgar]

These boards are a free market with strings (read reputation) attached.

 

[The Volusianator]

It's my understanding that MSRP never includes state taxes. So wouldn't it be silly then to say that everything should be sold at MSRP being that in most cases, we pay more than that? My .02 says that selling cigars for what you paid for them just makes sense, or below of course if you want to offer a deal to someone.

In the case of Dave who's volunteering to pick up Opus for members, myself included, heck, I included a few extra bucks just for his effort and generous offer. I thought it was the least I could do.

 

[Mark Twain]

On the subject of gouging FFOX:

Retailers are free to charge whatever price they wish for OpusX. It has been my understanding that retailers did charge whatever price they wanted for Opus X and this gouging led to the Fuentes requiring their authorized FFOX retailer to;

1.) Not sell FFOX online
2.) Sell at MSRP (before state taxes)
3.) Only allow in store purchases of FFOX, limited to two a person.


There are exceptions to this rule, why they are exceptions I don’t know, but Casa Fuente does not follow rules 2.) or 3.). Holt’s sells Opus X online in samplers. Tampasweethearts sells via phone/ mail order but limits the number.

The last three examples clearly show that Fuente/ JC Newman cigar does not enforce these rules across the country.

I like what this guy says about FFOX gouging.

 

[davew0670]

Now from an individual standpoint here in this and other forums I do not agree. As individual BOTL we should not be trying to "make a buck" off of our felow BOTLs. As long as the cigar(s) were not gifts one should be able to sell or trade them for the value of the cigar or what they paid which ever is lower.

So if I paid $10 for WOAMs locally, I should sell them for MSRP?

So if I'm never able to get MSRP and I buy them for what I can locally, I'm losing money if I try to sell them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

For example, the guy buying the Opus for everyone. He's buying them locally for $10 (not really sure), but according to your above statement he should charge people MSRP regardless, since it's lower?

just to clarify, here is my bank card statement from one of the opus purchases

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/dav...pg?t=1166032553


hope that works..not that it really looks like a reciept or proves anything

 

[bfreebern]

Now from an individual standpoint here in this and other forums I do not agree. As individual BOTL we should not be trying to "make a buck" off of our felow BOTLs. As long as the cigar(s) were not gifts one should be able to sell or trade them for the value of the cigar or what they paid which ever is lower.

So if I paid $10 for WOAMs locally, I should sell them for MSRP?

So if I'm never able to get MSRP and I buy them for what I can locally, I'm losing money if I try to sell them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

For example, the guy buying the Opus for everyone. He's buying them locally for $10 (not really sure), but according to your above statement he should charge people MSRP regardless, since it's lower?

just to clarify, here is my bank card statement from one of the opus purchases

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/dav...pg?t=1166032553


hope that works..not that it really looks like a reciept or proves anything

Nobody was taking what you charged and accused you of anything. I was just using it as an example of how things should go.

 

[BlindedByScience]

I think we're all saying the same thing slightly differently.

In a free market society, I think any retailer should be able to charge anything they want for any of their goods. If a retailer thinks their "Power Rangers" are worth $40.00 a stick, I say go for it. However, because it's a free market, it is also my option to not only refuse to purchase their products, but advise friends to also not purchase them. "Don't feed the gougers" is the phrase that comes to mind.

It's never OK to profit from a BOTL. Ever. Seems pretty clear to me. Selling gifted smokes? Blasphemy.....

The grey area arises when limited availability comes into play. Hypothetically, say a vendor has a rare, hard to find stick that MSRP's for $8.00. He's charging $10.00 because he can get it. I have no other way to get these, so an extra $2.00 / ea doesn't seem to be a big deal.....to me. Now, maybe you can buy 'em all day long for $8.00 but hypothetically, say I can't. So, maybe it's worth the extra two bucks to me.

If I then choose to resell them to a BOTL, I don't see any issues if I'm honest and say "I paid $10.00 for them, so if they are worth that to you, here they are." In this case, I'm not profiting, and am selling the albeit "overpriced" product for what I paid for it. As long as everyone has their eyes open here, I don't see this is an issue.

My $00.02 - B.B.S.