Is the ISOM market stagnant/inferior? And a couple questions...

[jsm11]

Is there a lack of innovation in the CC market, I was listening to an interview from a gentleman he was just about laughing at the CC market.

Some of the points, upon which he opined:
Lack of innovation
Lack of quality both physically (tight draw, construction issues) & (actual product) un aged tobacco that is full of ammonia to the point that the product is unsmokable.

So, I ask:
Innovation, seems to be limited based on using solely CC tobacco, not blended with Brazilian, Sumatra, Nicaraguan, Dominican, etc.

Innovation as it relates to sizes, seems to be smaller gauge and shorter in length?

Quality, I read very often that the cigars are tight, to the point that they're un-smokable? Should they not have the best rollers on the planet for their flagship sticks?

Quality, why do they not age the tobacco to the point that it's readily enjoyable, like Padron, etc. produce?

For what it's worth I've only experienced a handful of No. 2 Monties and 4 of the 5 were like sucking an orange through a straw. That faith one though, has me eager to lay my hands on more....

Also, in my line of work I work all over the country and have several friends overseas that work and they claim that the locals actually want anything but CCs?

If you could please, pass some knowledge....

 

[garbandz]

Obviously your source is Waaay out of the loop.
 
There have not been ammonia problems in Cuban cigars  since 2003.
There is no point in blending anything with Cuban tobacco,it would ruin the blend and the profiles of cigars that have been enjoyed worldwide for over a century.
Tight cigars are not a Cuba only problem.Yes the ratio is higher among them,some of this is a storage issue.
 
I think you should look elsewhere for your information,this guy is very misleading on all counts.

 

[Devil Doc]

What do expect from Communists. It's a fucked up system for a reason.

Doc

 

[BlindedByScience]

There is no point in blending anything with Cuban tobacco,it would ruin the blend and the profiles of cigars that have been enjoyed worldwide for over a century.
 

 
...respectfully, you're talking out your ass here.  I know for a fact that several of the world's best cigar families and blenders have said repeatedly that a Cuban / Nicaraguan blend may in fact be the 'holy grail' of blends.  Of course, no one will know until it's tried.  I also know for a fact that when it's legal for US distribution, this is exactly what we're going to see from more than one company.
 
Of course, Cuban 'snobs' will scoff at the idea, but I think it's interesting territory to venture into.....

 

[jfields]

How many times have you tried something once or twice and fallen head over heels in love with it? Cigars in general were an aqquired taste for me and most out there. Cubans, Non Cubans, etc.

Like what you smoke, and smoke what you like!

People don't have to over think it and make it so difficult! Sheesh!

 

[Light this!]

Let me guess, the gentleman being interviewed probably had a dog in the fight - right?
 
As of late it appears that the Cubans are now aging some of their tobacco which is great and you're not getting that ammonia taste to them. It's tough to age tobacco when demand is high and product is in short supply. This year is a good example with the shortage of long wrapper leaf due to the weather the past two years. These resources will probably used for the shorter vitolas and not the longer ones.
 
I don't like that the current trend in Cuba is bigger ring gauges but absolutely love the smaller ring gauges. 
 
As for tightly rolled cigars in my opinion this has gotten way better probably starting around 2010. Don't get me wrong tight ones can still be had but I tend to find them less often.
 
As for lack of innovation, like Doc said is a damn communist country what do you expect.
 
You are always going to get the CC / NC debate. Enjoy what you like but if you're use to that strong Nicaraguan / Dominican nicotine in your face experience - you're not going to get that with CC's. Some people say that some just smoke the band but I beg to differ. I truly enjoy CC's over any NC any day of the week but that's just me. So far from 2010 - current, CC's have been very enjoyable. 
 
Again, just my .02 cents.

 

[jsm11]

Let me guess, the gentleman being interviewed probably had a dog in the fight - right?
 
As of late it appears that the Cubans are now aging some of their tobacco which is great and you're not getting that ammonia taste to them. It's tough to age tobacco when demand is high and product is in short supply. This year is a good example with the shortage of long wrapper leaf due to the weather the past two years. These resources will probably used for the shorter vitolas and not the longer ones.
 
I don't like that the current trend in Cuba is bigger ring gauges but absolutely love the smaller ring gauges. 
 
As for tightly rolled cigars in my opinion this has gotten way better probably starting around 2010. Don't get me wrong tight ones can still be had but I tend to find them less often.
 
As for lack of innovation, like Doc said is a damn communist country what do you expect.
 
You are always going to get the CC / NC debate. Enjoy what you like but if you're use to that strong Nicaraguan / Dominican nicotine in your face experience - you're not going to get that with CC's. Some people say that some just smoke the band but I beg to differ. I truly enjoy CC's over any NC any day of the week but that's just me. So far from 2010 - current, CC's have been very enjoyable. 
 
Again, just my .02 cents.

Was definitely an American Manufacturer...

Thanks for the knowledge...

 

[garbandz]

Thank you Blinded by Science,you aptly prove my point.
 
You claim factual knowledge that "several  of the world's best cigar families and blenders" etc etc.
Who are they?
What is your source?
 
It may surprise you to learn that a few companies currently have partial Cuban blends,Don Ursulo and Meerapfels being two.
 
Strange you did not mention them,or were you talking out of your ass?(respectfully)
 
Also, it's nice that you have knowledge about what will happen after the embargo is lifted.Would you please tell us when it is going to happen? 

 

[Devil Doc]

Thank you Blinded by Science,you aptly prove my point.
 
You claim factual knowledge that "several  of the world's best cigar families and blenders" etc etc.
Who are they?
What is your source?
 
It may surprise you to learn that a few companies currently have partial Cuban blends,Don Ursulo and Meerapfels being two.
 
Strange you did not mention them,or were you talking out of your ass?(respectfully)
 
Also, it's nice that you have knowledge about what will happen after the embargo is lifted.Would you please tell us when it is going to happen?

You certainly are an annoying noob. You're not going to last around here very long if you keep this shit up. BBS is a stand up guy that has paid his dues. You're just a puke who should read more, post less and keep the hell out of the CC forum.

Doc

 

[garbandz]

Well Doc,you have had it in for me from the first day.
 
Care to discuss what has you all riled up?
 
So far you have walked right over the rules and guidelines established here.
Rule 2     Respect
Rule 3     No Flaming
Rule 5    No Baiting
Rule 7 No defamation or harassing.
 
Whatever you want to say you can say to my face,let's get it out in the open and fix it,so we can all go on with our lives and enjoy ourselves.
 
I did not come here for your abuse.I am new here, but I have been enjoying cigars for over 40 years.
I have studied a lot about cigars,growing and ageing tobacco,and marketing cigars.
I have been a consultant in the industry and have worked with US and foreign companies.
 
I expect to add a lot to this site,if I am allowed to use it just like all the rest of the members. Calling me a newbie puke shows to all of us that you do not have the spirit of this site at heart,and the accusatory tone you take with me,without ever even trying to talk to me ,really does you no credit.
 
And I think it is REALLY low to go to my Newbie intro and backstab at me.That really shows the contempt you have for someone you know NOTHING about,and were not even willing to try to learn.
 
I await your reply...............
 
 
 
You have to earn respect,and right now you are backing up.
 
I am a member of several cigar forums,and am in good standing in all of them.......

 

[maverickmage]

I do agree that from my experience with CCs, there does seem to be a higher ratio of plugged cigars.  Here's my guess...
A) Cubans may prefer a tighter draw so they're closer to that plugged threshold
B) Extreme high demand leads to producing beyond their means which leads to lower QC
C) People seems to take it as normal if some CCs are plugged and Cuba may have decided that it works to their QC issues.
 
@garbandz Keeping things the same because it's the way it has been done for years is pretty much the definition of stagnation.
 
With that said, there is a definite snobbery amongst many CC smokers.  To them cubans are the holy grail and everything else is diluting it.  My guess is who knows how CC/NC mix will taste?  I don't think there's been enough experimentation in that field to comment one way or another.  

 

[bfreebern]

Innovation in the cigar industry? It's not automobiles or electronics they're making. They grow the tobacco, harvest, age, roll and sell the cigars. That's a pretty straight forward process that has lasted over the years.

 

[Devil Doc]

Well Doc,you have had it in for me from the first day.
 
Care to discuss what has you all riled up?
 
So far you have walked right over the rules and guidelines established here.
Rule 2     Respect
Rule 3     No Flaming
Rule 5    No Baiting
Rule 7 No defamation or harassing.
 
Whatever you want to say you can say to my face,let's get it out in the open and fix it,so we can all go on with our lives and enjoy ourselves.
 
I did not come here for your abuse.I am new here, but I have been enjoying cigars for over 40 years.
I have studied a lot about cigars,growing and ageing tobacco,and marketing cigars.
I have been a consultant in the industry and have worked with US and foreign companies.
 
I expect to add a lot to this site,if I am allowed to use it just like all the rest of the members. Calling me a newbie puke shows to all of us that you do not have the spirit of this site at heart,and the accusatory tone you take with me,without ever even trying to talk to me ,really does you no credit.
 
And I think it is REALLY low to go to my Newbie intro and backstab at me.That really shows the contempt you have for someone you know NOTHING about,and were not even willing to try to learn.
 
I await your reply...............
 
 
 
You have to earn respect,and right now you are backing up.
 
I am a member of several cigar forums,and am in good standing in all of them.......

Your attitude sucks. No one here cares that you've smoked cigars for 40 yrs. You're not the only one, but you are the only one who keeps telling us about it. You were disrespectful to a valued and respected member. You made your first post in the CC forum, and didn't handle the criticism well. The fact that you claim to be a veteran of other cigar forums carries no weight here. Actually, I would expect exemplary behavior from some one who claims to be experienced. Need I go on? You're a noob here. Live with it and start acting like it and I promise to ignore your arrogant ass in the future.
.
Doc

 

[MadMonk]

 

There is no point in blending anything with Cuban tobacco,it would ruin the blend and the profiles of cigars that have been enjoyed worldwide for over a century.
 

 
...respectfully, you're talking out your ass here.  I know for a fact that several of the world's best cigar families and blenders have said repeatedly that a Cuban / Nicaraguan blend may in fact be the 'holy grail' of blends.  Of course, no one will know until it's tried.  I also know for a fact that when it's legal for US distribution, this is exactly what we're going to see from more than one company.
 
Of course, Cuban 'snobs' will scoff at the idea, but I think it's interesting territory to venture into.....
 

Damn, BBS, I can't remember who is doing just that. Gary IronPeddlar posted about it. I"m real interested in trying them. Maybe Meerapfel.

A lot of the cuban bashing seems to come from the fear of competition. I personally think it is excellent tobacco, and that Altadis' influence has been mostly positive. Pepin had said he could score a CA 100 (fwiw) with a cuban/nic blend. I myself would love to see Padron and Fuente give it a go, as well.

 

[MilesMingusMonk]

Garbandz, we have a simple saying for new members to our community  ( aka noobs , newbies , newbie pukes , nooblers ) ...
 
Read more, post less! :thumbs:
 
Take the time to read the archived history of our community, and what makes us different from other cigar forums, before questioning our rules or going toe to toe with established members.

 

[CigSid]

Garbandz, we have a simple saying for new members to our community  ( aka noobs , newbies , newbie pukes , nooblers ) ...
 
Read more, post less! :thumbs:
 
Take the time to read the archived history of our community, and what makes us different from other cigar forums, before questioning our rules or going toe to toe with established members.

Great points!

Also with Doc and BBS being two of the most respected members of our family here, we get a bit defensive when we sense that someone (especially a noob) is being derogatory in any way, towards these gentlemen... Consider this a very pleasant warning...

 

[BlindedByScience]

Thank you Blinded by Science,you aptly prove my point.
 
You claim factual knowledge that "several  of the world's best cigar families and blenders" etc etc.
Who are they?
What is your source?
 
It may surprise you to learn that a few companies currently have partial Cuban blends,Don Ursulo and Meerapfels being two.
 
Strange you did not mention them,or were you talking out of your ass?(respectfully)
 
Also, it's nice that you have knowledge about what will happen after the embargo is lifted.Would you please tell us when it is going to happen? 

 
My sources in the industry are my sources, and if you believe me or not, it really doesn't concern me in any way, shape, or form.  I'm not going to name the people that have told me things in confidence, or they wouldn't tell me things in confidence any more.  Their friendship and insights matter to me.  Your validation....not so much.
 
I'm surprised that some one who claims to "...have been a consultant in the industry and have worked with US and foreign companies...." wouldn't realize that the cigar industry is very innovative, and new blends, concepts, vitolas get tried all the time.  Of course, commercial success is a different story.  Of course I'm aware that Cuban blends have been tried before, but since the US is a major consumer of cigars, and since Cuban tobacco is still illegal, the folks I talk to say the big families are waiting for that to change before they jump into the market with their own blends.
 
With your vast expertise, maybe you could comment on how much foreign tobacco Cuba buys every year?  Love to hear your expert observations on that.
 
And lastly, your comment; "...Also, it's nice that you have knowledge about what will happen after the embargo is lifted.Would you please tell us when it is going to happen?..."...please.  As an expert in the industry, don't the people you talk to tell you what their plans are for when the embargo is lifted?  As far as telling you when it's going to happen, that's the kind of question that is asked for only one reason - to troll me and the forums.  Now, admittedly, my 'talking out your ass' comment wasn't the most kind and gentle thing I've ever said, but your comment is over the line.
 
I wouldn't walk into a new friends home, put my feet on the coffee table, and start insulting them while making sure they knew what an awesome person I was.  You are clueless as to who posts in these forums, who reads them, and who knows who in the industry.  "Read more, post less" is the polite way to say what I'm thinking, so I think I'll just leave it at that. 

 

[Brickhouse]

In regards to quality, I do think that there have been leaps and bounds in my opinion.  Prior to 2010 I wouldn't think of buying a box of CC.  I had simply too many failures in draw to risk a blind box buy.  However, I'd say that in the last two years, 80% of my purchases are CC.  Sure, I have a few here and there that are tight, but not nearly how it was 4 years ago.
 
In regards to innovation, I struggle to understand the definition in the cigar world.  Rocky Patel puts something new on the market every week it seems....is that innovative?  Like Freebern said, it's tobacco, you grow it, harvest it, age it, roll it, and smoke it.  Maybe innovation is not selling yourself out to a bunch of crap blends to have a new cigar every week.  Maybe innovation in this business is refining your techniques to make what you already have, better.  Honestly, I don't care for a ton of changes and new things.  I don't need new flavor of the week.  Just make a good damn cigar, and continue to make it.  Having something with actual quality is innovative enough these days.

 

[BlindedByScience]

In regards to quality, I do think that there have been leaps and bounds in my opinion.  Prior to 2010 I wouldn't think of buying a box of CC.  I had simply too many failures in draw to risk a blind box buy.  However, I'd say that in the last two years, 80% of my purchases are CC.  Sure, I have a few here and there that are tight, but not nearly how it was 4 years ago.

 
Agree 100%.  I'm not at 80% purchase of CC's...but, I'm working on it....
 
I think a Cuban / NIC / DR blend would be pretty innovative.....you know the respected families in the business will give it a go, when the embargo is lifted.
 
...no, I don't have any idea when that will be... :whistling:

 

[maverickmage]

In regards to innovation, I struggle to understand the definition in the cigar world.  Rocky Patel puts something new on the market every week it seems....is that innovative?  Like Freebern said, it's tobacco, you grow it, harvest it, age it, roll it, and smoke it.  

 
I think you guys are breaking it down too simplistically.  If there were no innovation with cigars, all the cigars would probably taste similar... in which case, why bother smoking a $10 stick over a $2 stick?  There's innovation in various points.  It could be a change in rolling method, it could be different regional tobaccos, different blend combinations, different fermentation method, different growing method, etc...  
 
Sure, you have places like Rocky Patel creates some blah cigars, but new cigars do have its merits.  It's part of the reason why people goes to cigar trade shows and whatnot.  To see what new cigars are coming out.  I think places like LFD, Illusione, and even CAO are some better examples.