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MRSP vs Internet Pricing

After reading back through this thread, I realize that I did not address brother Cohibasurfer's original question, and that is: MSRP or internet pricing?

I think it is clear from virtually everyone who has expressed an opinion here that MSRP is not an adequate means of determining price in many cases - but price is still the only objective way of determining value. Internet pricing is best because it is closest to true market price. I think it would be helpful to set a guideline (not a standard) for establishing internet price. I would recommend that the online prices of one of the larger mail order houses be used, followed by another, pre-determined mail order house, if the first doesn't carry the product in question. As for vintage cigars, I look to brother Devin Cole to point us in the right direction. :)

Take care, Bacchus

P.S. One of these days I will participate in a pass. But I will not take it well if a FOG tells me that my Monte #2 isn't better than or equal to an AF Don Carlos #2. :D
 
BACCHUS said:
After reading back through this thread, I realize that I did not address brother Cohibasurfer's original question, and that is: MSRP or internet pricing?

I think it is clear from virtually everyone who has expressed an opinion here that MSRP is not an adequate means of determining price in many cases - but price is still the only objective way of determining value. Internet pricing is best because it is closest to true market price. I think it would be helpful to set a guideline (not a standard) for establishing internet price. I would recommend that the online prices of one of the larger mail order houses be used, followed by another, pre-determined mail order house, if the first doesn't carry the product in question. As for vintage cigars, I look to brother Devin Cole to point us in the right direction. :)

Take care, Bacchus

P.S. One of these days I will participate in a pass. But I will not take it well if a FOG tells me that my Monte #2 isn't better than or equal to an AF Don Carlos #2. :D
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for the web inventory for Triple_D'S Pass we are using CI first, then JR's, and then Atlanticcigar and the prices reflect the price per stick when buying a box.
 
cohibasurfer said:
Actually the Term Teacher still gives me shivers!
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Tim was a real gem... :(


Gentlemen, just treat everyone the way you would like to be treated.


Will, I don't think you will have any problems there... ;)
 
Here's a question. For listing purposes on my online inventories, where is the best place to find GOOD "retail" prices for ISOMS?

You can PM me if you wish to not post the link publicly.
 
Since reworking the PIF and Lottos, as well as reviewing Pass plays, I've given this topic some thought as well. Internet pricing and MSRP will never be a perfect system, but in dire times, it provides a usable solution. However, where it fails is as the case that cohibasurfer presented. PAM vs. Bahia. Clearly, PAM is in a different class level all together from the Bahia, regardless of price.

A few weeks back, I thought a solution might be to have a master list of cigars and their "quality" levels. If you took a cigar that was considered "premium," then you replaced it of equal monetary value from a cigar in the same list.

For Example:
Premium-
AF Anejo
AF BTL

High-End-
Ashton VSG
PAM

Mid-Range-
AVO
Bahia

If the list were to look a little something like this, then the Bahia would NOT be in the same class as the PAM and thus not an "equal" trade. A PAM should only be traded for something in the same class, such as a VSG. If needed, here is when $ value may be used so that you're not giving a $7.50 VSG Tres Mystique for a $15 PAM Torpedo. I think for the most part, we'd all be pretty happy if we got a VSG Illusion for a PAM Exclusivo or vice versa, right? It sure beats getting a Bahia Gold for that same PAM Exclusivo. :p
 
I think the ideas of price and value are being confused. They really don't have much to do with each other. Even value has to be broken down into two areas, personal value, i.e. what is it worth to you and societal value or what the general consensus thinks something is worth. Those may not be the same.
 
Devin Cole said:
Gentlemen, just treat everyone the way you would like to be treated.
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This is the key to each and every pass. That, and communication with the other participants and the originator. I would rather someone hold the box for an extra day if they have a question about their puts/takes, than to end up having them lambasted because of their puts/takes.

As for your specific questions, Mike. The trade suggested is not fair IMHO. BUT, if the pass had general guidelines of MSRP to MSRP, which many do, it would be "fair" and if it were my pass or one I was involved with, I'd let it go through. Sometimes there needs to be give and take to allow for people to pick up a stick or two they have indeed not tried. But, if it's obvious that they are just trying to pull something over on the pass, then, something needs to be said by others in the pass. The intention of the passer gets some points in my book. That is not always easily defined though. In this certain instance I think that a person's intentions would be less scrupulous if they ahd added one or two more smokes in with the fray.

Now, MSRP vs. Retail..... I personally don't see a difference, unless we are talking about high end stuff that gets marked up to the nth degree. In the tarde you posted, I don't see a real difference between the MSRP vs. retail issue, as all of the cigars listed are regulary available for MSRP + tax. I would say that you have to drop the tax from retail in all cases.
 
Matt R said:
Sometimes there needs to be give and take to allow for people to pick up a stick or two they have indeed not tried. But, if it's obvious that they are just trying to pull something over on the pass, then, something needs to be said by others in the pass. The intention of the passer gets some points in my book. That is not always easily defined though.

In the tarde you posted, I don't see a real difference between the MSRP vs. retail issue
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Excellent point.

Also, who you calling a 'tard?

j/k
 
Matt R said:
Now, MSRP vs. Retail..... I personally don't see a difference, unless we are talking about high end stuff that gets marked up to the nth degree.
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Nice Post Senior Matt!

But of course I have to argue my point on this statement :)

MRSP is what the manufacturer would like the retailer to sell their cigars for. Now when you shop online. You get retailers who believe in the fast nickle and not the slow dime. Plus you alleviate the state taxes. Therefore with those retailers you'll get a better price than MRSP!

Now for 1 more scenerio just for the people that aren't convinced.

Take : AF Canones -MRSP $4.95

Put : 5 Vegas Churchill -MRSP $5.75


Fair?

I think we are about there...LOL!

P.S. Matt, what on earth are you doing talking about cigars you don't even smoke? ;) How many Bahia's do you have laying next to your VR custom rolls ? :p
 
cohibasurfer said:
Now for 1 more scenerio just for the people that aren't convinced.

Take : AF Canones -MRSP $4.95

Put : 5 Vegas Churchill -MRSP $5.75


Fair?

I think we are about there...LOL!
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Damn your good at pointing these things out. I agree with you 100% that MSRP does not count for crap. The available price is what is important.
 
cohibasurfer said:
How many Bahia's do you have laying next to your VR custom rolls ? :p
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LMAO!! 20, give or take one or two. :) And, the one full box is even autographed!! LMAO!!

AF Canones vs. 5 Vegas churchill...... both over-priced, IMHO. :)
 
The play is not fair. There are many factors to consider most of which have already been touched on in this thread. The one thing I didn't see addressed in detail (though I may have missed it) is the discrepancy between brands regarding discounting. I realize this is the point being made in many posts here but I didn't notice it explicitly detailed. Many cigars are rarely if ever discounted from MSRP and in many cases sell for more. This is the main reason using MSRP in passes is flawed. Most domestic brands can be had for 40-50% off on a regular basis. Try and find some PAM's or VSG's for that :p Of course I agree that rarity/availability must be considered. Personally if I was to take a stick that is no longer available (via retail) I would put at least one of equal or higher value in it's place. Value for value. If it's a stick that is a limited release such as Anejo's or BTL's the same applies. IMO you would need to replace one of these with a similarly rare/limited release stick.

Lastly I agree with everything that has been said about attitude. Passes are about fun and comradery. As has been iterated before they are not about improving your stock or getting a deal on cigars.
 
When I host a pass I hate having to approve every trade. Takes all the fun out of it and creates a lot more work for me. I don't mind having newbies pm me asking about specific cigars, how else are they gonna learn? But I don't like having to review every p&t, especially when they are within a couple dollars of each other. FOG should be able to do the work themselves, and I don't think should ask "How's this?" about their overall p&t. (A specific cigar the're unfimilar with ask.)

It comes down to, as others have said, trust, respect, and leave the box better. (How much better is an interesting question. Do we leave the box better because we want to be generous or because we're afraid someone may call into question our trade?) Oh and there's suppose to be something about having fun. You also have to learn that price & value are two different things and understand value is very subjective.

As to the original two suggested p&ts, I'd let the two stand in my pass. I think in preceived value it may come up a little short but not enough to worry about. It's not an exact science. I'm going to assume the botl is learning, maybe never had a AF or PAM ( or doesn't know the value they carry on the boards), did some homework, believed his p&t listed as equal, and made what he thought was an honest swap.

I guess I'm assuming everyone in the pass is honest (that's been true for me in the 6 or so passes I've hosted) and our intent is to have fun not make sure I've got the exact dollar value down for my puts and takes. (I think that's been true too.)

If I was ever hosting a very high end or rare cigar pass then it might be more critical.

And if someone was switching bands and passing off dogs that's a whole other issue. And there ain't no rules gonna fix that, that takes a whole 'nother kinda fixin'
 
mdman said:
Use common sence.. you know what is choice and what is not..
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I am goping to have to agree with that.
I have been in a few passes big and small, and in general I go by 'general sense'.

In looking at the first trade, no they are both off. I would not be happy w/ it as I see their values as being different. As for pricing, if I had to pick, I guess I would go w/ internet over store. In WI we have a 25% tax and some store see fit to put a nice profit on some of their smokes as well.
But then you have the problem of sticks that cost the same, but are on other levels.

prices that I saw these in a store for

Dom. Montie #2 $15
Ashton VSG [one of the larger ones] $15.99

bought both, the VSG was great, the Montie #2 was crap. Both are known brands at same cost, just diff. in quality, IMHO.
of course it also dep on the smoker, someone might love a domestic montie #2 as much as a VSG. I smoked a Zino Platinum (the $35 one) and loved it. A great med/mild smoke. was it worth the price? no. But still a good smoke to me.

I guess it comes down to a gen. sense, if you are unsure feel free to PM the host, otherwise just put in something of similar value, both in $$ and value. Of course throwning in an extra one or two is not a bad thing either as a nice touch.
 
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