Smoking at my cigar shop now ILLEGAL

[KeithS]

All I have to say on the philosophy of this social political situation can be summed up in three quotes from John Locke.

1-- “The end of law is not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom."
2-- "Government has no other end, but the preservation of property.”
3-- “Every man has a property in his own person. This nobody has a right to, but himself.”

Make your own choices and be responsible for the consequences. Some choices preclude others.

Unfortunately this mindset has all but been eliminated from most of Western culture (and likely most others, as well, but I don't have any personal experience with those cultures). The movement to alleviate one from liberty began many years ago and has sunk it's teeth deeply into the fabric of our lives. The people responsible for this type of nonsense are completely focused on bringing about a different United States than that which has flourished for the last 200+ years. They are fully entrenched in this task while most of the rest of the population is not paying any attention. Complacency will one day come back to haunt us all, but by then it will be too late. It seems that the only people willing to fight are those that want to force their way of thinking and way of life onto others in an effort to "make a difference."

I'm not talking about some sort of "conspiracy" or other such nonsense. I'm talking about the way our culture has shaped itself over the last few generations. It has happened slowly and incrementally. One day we're all going to wake up and say "What the heck has happened?" Some days, I already do so.

I don't know how old you are Bastage, I'm only 40. I've heard this many times from people older than me. They say that you can't imagine the liberties that Americans have given up little by little over the years. Nothing big or all at once but sooner or later we'll all wonder what the heck has happened.

Heart disease is the number one killer now isn't it? When are they going to ban fast food, or maybe bacon? You can only buy 2Lbs of bacon a year, and only go to McDonalds once a month or get fined. Maybe jail depending on how much bacon you ate. Come on nanny state I can't make decisions for myself.

Keith

 

[LilBastage]

All I have to say on the philosophy of this social political situation can be summed up in three quotes from John Locke.

1-- “The end of law is not to abolish or restrain, but to preserve and enlarge freedom."
2-- "Government has no other end, but the preservation of property.”
3-- “Every man has a property in his own person. This nobody has a right to, but himself.”

Make your own choices and be responsible for the consequences. Some choices preclude others.

Unfortunately this mindset has all but been eliminated from most of Western culture (and likely most others, as well, but I don't have any personal experience with those cultures). The movement to alleviate one from liberty began many years ago and has sunk it's teeth deeply into the fabric of our lives. The people responsible for this type of nonsense are completely focused on bringing about a different United States than that which has flourished for the last 200+ years. They are fully entrenched in this task while most of the rest of the population is not paying any attention. Complacency will one day come back to haunt us all, but by then it will be too late. It seems that the only people willing to fight are those that want to force their way of thinking and way of life onto others in an effort to "make a difference."

I'm not talking about some sort of "conspiracy" or other such nonsense. I'm talking about the way our culture has shaped itself over the last few generations. It has happened slowly and incrementally. One day we're all going to wake up and say "What the heck has happened?" Some days, I already do so.

I don't know how old you are Bastage, I'm only 40. I've heard this many times from people older than me. They say that you can't imagine the liberties that Americans have given up little by little over the years. Nothing big or all at once but sooner or later we'll all wonder what the heck has happened.

Heart disease is the number one killer now isn't it? When are they going to ban fast food, or maybe bacon? You can only buy 2Lbs of bacon a year, and only go to McDonalds once a month or get fined. Maybe jail depending on how much bacon you ate. Come on nanny state I can't make decisions for myself.

Keith

I'm not nearly as old as some think. I'm in my 30s.

I had a very close relationship with my Grandfather and many of his friends. I spent many a southern Indiana summer night sitting on the front porch after a fish fry listening to these fine men and adsorbing their wisdom. It took me a while (and quite a bit of study), but I finally came to really understand the things they were saying.

Almost all of them are gone now (my Grandfather included), but their words still resonate with me. I'm sorry that many members of that generation were never given the attention they deserved. They are a great resource that is rapidly shrinking.

 

[Rebel Herfer]

I support smoking bans in public places. I like smoking bans in resturants, I don't want to smell someones smoke when I'm trying to enjoy a meal.

I disagree. I also don't much care for the smell of cigarette smoke while I am trying to enjoy my meal, but that doesn't mean it should be outlawed.

I believe that the owner of the restaurant should have the right to decide the smoking policy of the establishment he owns and shouldn't be forced to do what he doesn't feel is in the best interest of his business. If enough people want a non-smoking establishment, then there would be someone there to capitalize on that market. If you don't like the owner's rules complain to the owner or manager, not to the law makers.

Very well said :thumbs:

Only thing to add is x2!

Unfettered Capitalism in AMERICA! What the Hell are you thinkin. Start learning to Goosestep, election day is not so far off. I think it's funny we can discuss politics here when it come to this issue. As to the casinos not being included... this answers the "follow the money rule" question. If the smoke politzi really wanted to protect the public health they would outlaw tobacco. Also it's rather infuriating that I get everybody elses' "lifestyle" issues SHOVED in my face and called intollerant if I express my lack of acceptance. Tollerance is the hallmark of a man without values. Should we be tollerant of Al Queda's desire to have everyone convert to Islam - don't you dare laugh, the day is fast approaching for the test of YOUR tollerance level. THIS is just the beginning!

ok - back to a good cigar!

 

[Mike33]

Tollerance is the hallmark of a man without values. Should we be tollerant of Al Queda's desire to have everyone convert to Islam - don't you dare laugh, the day is fast approaching for the test of YOUR tollerance level. THIS is just the beginning!

First off, it's spelled tolerance. Second off, your statement that a man who does not have tolerance has no values has to be the, I mean THE, most ignorant thing I have read on this board. Tolerance is one of the greatest values this country has.....if we didn't have tolerance we wouldn't be any different than Al Qaeda or the Taliban.

And why the hell did you bring Al Qaeda into a discussion of smoking bans?

Anyways, I'm sure Brad and the guys will be able to work something out....there's always ways around these types of bans.

 

[insight]

Mike are you coming next weekend?

 

[OpusXKC]

Yea seems to be getting a little off topic there.

On the second point, you're probably right. There may be a way around this. Hell, if they find you have to smoke only in a open door way facing south wearing a tweed clown suit then so be it :laugh:

 

[Mike33]

Mike are you coming next weekend?

Yea I'm for sure going to be there Sat. and possibly Fri. night. I might be out of town on Fri., but we'll see.

 

[OpusXKC]

I've edited my original post with a link to the "updated" language for KC Ord Chapter 34

Here are the penalties.

Sec. 34-476. Penalty for violation of this Article.

(a) A person who smokes in an area where smoking is prohibited by the provisions of this Article shall be guilty of an ordinance violation, punishable by a fine not exceeding fifty dollars ($50.00).

(b) A person having control of a public place or place of employment and who fails to comply with the provisions of this Article shall be guilty of an ordinance violation, punishable by:

(1) A fine not exceeding one hundred dollars ($100) for a first violation.

(2) A fine not exceeding two hundred dollars ($200) for a second violation within a one (1) year period.

(3) A fine not exceeding five hundred dollars ($500) for a third or subsequent violations within a one (1) year period.

(4) Each day on which a violation of this Article occurs shall be a separate and distinct violation

 

[Rebel Herfer]

Tollerance is the hallmark of a man without values. Should we be tollerant of Al Queda's desire to have everyone convert to Islam - don't you dare laugh, the day is fast approaching for the test of YOUR tollerance level. THIS is just the beginning!

First off, it's spelled tolerance. Second off, your statement that a man who does not have tolerance has no values has to be the, I mean THE, most ignorant thing I have read on this board. Tolerance is one of the greatest values this country has.....if we didn't have tolerance we wouldn't be any different than Al Qaeda or the Taliban.

And why the hell did you bring Al Qaeda into a discussion of smoking bans?

Anyways, I'm sure Brad and the guys will be able to work something out....there's always ways around these types of bans.

Mike - the post was made quickly and with passion. Spelling isn't really germain but I'll fix it, if it helps. If you truly believe that to be the most ignorant thing... you must not read many of the posts around here lately! :laugh: relax j/k So I take it you'll be accepting of the smoke police views that you, as a cigar smoker, are one of the biggest threat to clean air and their health? Liberties are taken away incrementally and anyone who speaks up is tagged with this intolerance nomer. I did however mangle the quote on tolerance, should have been as follows and I was incorrect. The sentiment remains the same, the use of the word tolerance is incorrect and should be acceptance.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. -Gilbert K. Chesterton

Al Queda was a backer of the Taliban that supressed the Afgan people. It may have been extreme but it was used to show the urgency. In other words don't stand by and watch it happen to others, you ARE next.

 

[Swissy]

Mike are you coming next weekend?

Yea I'm for sure going to be there Sat. and possibly Fri. night. I might be out of town on Fri., but we'll see.

Sweet!!! See ya there :thumbs:

 

[N2Advnture]

The most frustrating thing as a CIGAR SMOKER is that we get lumped in with the health effects of cigarette smokers.

The BS surrounding the "second hand smoke kills" mantra touted as the premise for the these bans would easily be squashed if more people were aware of the only comprehensive second hand smoke study done by the World Health Organization. (http://www.cigarmony.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=14)

Unfortunately, the powers that be are fed statistics that benefit the interest of those organizations that were formed to push these bans (and making $ on a hot topic that they created!).

The IPCPR (RTDA) started in the right direction last year with the name change to try to separate us from the cigarettes and the while many think the proposed FDA handling of tobacco might be a bad thing, I believe that if the FDA were to be in charge of tobacco that it may lead to more comprehensive studies of the true effects of second hand smoke, cigar smoking vs cigarette smoking health effect and more public results of these studies.

We cigar smokers need to continue to contact out local representatives to make them aware that there is a significant difference between the two. If they only hear from the ignorant anti-smoking nazis then it makes it simple for them to push these bans through.

Because they are typical disconnected from "every day" life of the people they represent, it's amazing how much they actually weigh emails, faxes and phone calls from people expressing their point of views. It means more when the "public" is screaming in unison.

Just my .02 though

~Mark

 

[Mike33]

Tollerance is the hallmark of a man without values. Should we be tollerant of Al Queda's desire to have everyone convert to Islam - don't you dare laugh, the day is fast approaching for the test of YOUR tollerance level. THIS is just the beginning!

First off, it's spelled tolerance. Second off, your statement that a man who does not have tolerance has no values has to be the, I mean THE, most ignorant thing I have read on this board. Tolerance is one of the greatest values this country has.....if we didn't have tolerance we wouldn't be any different than Al Qaeda or the Taliban.

And why the hell did you bring Al Qaeda into a discussion of smoking bans?

Anyways, I'm sure Brad and the guys will be able to work something out....there's always ways around these types of bans.

Mike - the post was made quickly and with passion. Spelling isn't really germain but I'll fix it, if it helps. If you truly believe that to be the most ignorant thing... you must not read many of the posts around here lately! :laugh: relax j/k So I take it you'll be accepting of the smoke police views that you, as a cigar smoker, are one of the biggest threat to clean air and their health? Liberties are taken away incrementally and anyone who speaks up is tagged with this intolerance nomer. I did however mangle the quote on tolerance, should have been as follows and I was incorrect. The sentiment remains the same, the use of the word tolerance is incorrect and should be acceptance.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. -Gilbert K. Chesterton

Al Queda was a backer of the Taliban that supressed the Afgan people. It may have been extreme but it was used to show the urgency. In other words don't stand by and watch it happen to others, you ARE next.

I don't know what made you think I am for smoking bans as I am certainly not. And I don't ACCEPT the premise that my right to enjoy a cigar is not more important than someone else's right to tell me to put it out. However, I TOLERATE a person's offense to smoking. Does that mean we need smoking bans? Of course not, designated smoking areas are the best ways to promote the rights and concerns of smokers and non-smokers and it is crazy to me that my rights to smoke are being subjected to those who are offended by it.

Having said that, do I think this puts us down the road to utter destruction of America and our way of life. Of course not! To even mention a smoking ban in the same breath as Al Qaeda and the Taliban is a joke, pure and simple. "The sky's falling, the sky's falling!" "Hide the women and children!" To say that this country is being turned into a police state slowly by the eroding of civil liberties is at best, hysterical.

I still don't get what you are trying to say regarding tolerance. By your reasoning, we should abandon tolerance because that means you don't have any values. Isn't that why we are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan now, because they won't tolerate others with different beliefs? Maybe you are confusing tolerance and acceptance?

 

[Smokyballs]

So far this is what I know. The ban has been passed. It will be 60 days before it goes into effect. The fines that are and will be leveed against us will be taken care of by the Outlaw until a time that it is no longer feasible for us to do so. We are suing the city. There is no way to get an injunction because without it going into effect there is no way to show damage that the Outlaw is going to suffer. We are looking into relocating the shop about 3 miles south in the city of Riverside. They are actually courting us because they want us to become the cornerstone for a new entertainment district. They are willing to do a lot of things that I can't talk about yet to get us into the city. The building would be free standing so we would not have to deal with any crap from anyone. Riverside will never pass a smoking ban(you have to be from the the area to really understand this)! We would be within 500 yards of the second largest casino in the area. For any of you that have been to the Outlaw, imagine the humidor about 5 times as large, The lounge about 4 times as big with fireplaces and a high end Scotch and Bourbon bar. A small kitchen with a limited day to day menu. A large outside patio with a large wood burning stove. A helicopter landing pad for our events! A few day apartments above the shop for VIPs and business travellers. This would be like nothing any of you have ever seen. The ultimate dream tobacco shop! Now, while we figure out what comes next we are going to deal with this just like we deal with everything. We are Outlaws, nobody tells us what we can do in our place but us! We will take our fines until it make since to have a temporary off-site smoking lounge(until we are up and running in the new shop). All of this is subject to change, we still may be able to get an exemption from the city if they find the lawsuit to be to much of a pain in the ass to deal with. ALL EVENTS WILL GO ON AS SCHEDULED!!!
The Surgeon General warning t-shirts are limited edition and can be found on our website for $15.

THANKS FOR ALL THE SUPPORT IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, IT WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN!!!

 

[JonDot]

HELL YEA!!!!!!The Outlaw rules!!!

 

[Mike33]

Hopefully it doesn't have to come to that Brad. But, if it does, it sounds like the Outlaw will be THE cigar shop to come to :thumbs:

 

[KeithS]

So far this is what I know. The ban has been passed. It will be 60 days before it goes into effect. The fines that are and will be leveed against us will be taken care of by the Outlaw until a time that it is no longer feasible for us to do so. We are suing the city. There is no way to get an injunction because without it going into effect there is no way to show damage that the Outlaw is going to suffer. We are looking into relocating the shop about 3 miles south in the city of Riverside. They are actually courting us because they want us to become the cornerstone for a new entertainment district. They are willing to do a lot of things that I can't talk about yet to get us into the city. The building would be free standing so we would not have to deal with any crap from anyone. Riverside will never pass a smoking ban(you have to be from the the area to really understand this)! We would be within 500 yards of the second largest casino in the area. For any of you that have been to the Outlaw, imagine the humidor about 5 times as large, The lounge about 4 times as big with fireplaces and a high end Scotch and Bourbon bar. A small kitchen with a limited day to day menu. A large outside patio with a large wood burning stove. A helicopter landing pad for our events! A few day apartments above the shop for VIPs and business travellers. This would be like nothing any of you have ever seen. The ultimate dream tobacco shop! Now, while we figure out what comes next we are going to deal with this just like we deal with everything. We are Outlaws, nobody tells us what we can do in our place but us! We will take our fines until it make since to have a temporary off-site smoking lounge(until we are up and running in the new shop). All of this is subject to change, we still may be able to get an exemption from the city if they find the lawsuit to be to much of a pain in the ass to deal with. ALL EVENTS WILL GO ON AS SCHEDULED!!!
The Surgeon General warning t-shirts are limited edition and can be found on our website for $15.

THANKS FOR ALL THE SUPPORT IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, IT WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN!!!

Would the city your in now loose tax revenue if you move? If they do, and you're getting a great deal to move. I'd move and then send the city a nice upyours letter with a copy of the tax revenue they just lost. Boy would that feel good. :laugh:

 

[Swissy]

Nice!! Stick it to 'em. And in the lawsuit, don't forget to mention that you even have morons coming from as far away as Alaska (and farther...) just to hit the events.

But the new place sounds really damn good if it does in fact happen. Just make sure I get a key to one of the traveler rooms and the humi... :laugh:

 

[tkoepp]

Sounds GREAT Brad,,, go get those bastards Outlaw crew !!!

 

[Smokyballs]

Yeah, if you can't tell, I'm very excited by the prospect of moving into a new store. The city is so painfully stupid. The tax money they will lose from the event days is mind boggling. We had planned to move eventually but this opportunity came to us and may have hit at the exact right time. I will keep everybody up to date as soon as I know more.

 

[MoeCizlak]

That is good to hear about the Outlaw. The only thing government listens to is tax revenues. If you do move, you should be sure to send them an estimation of the revenue that they lost after each and every event and maybe after you close your monthly books as well. I hope to get down there some day and experience first hand what I've only heard about so far. Good luck to the Outlaw in this fight.