Kinder, gentler CP?

[Wurm]

With all due respect, Shawn, your statement tells us nothing about why the idea failed at that forum, why it may or may not fail at this forum, or anything about how these two forums are the same or different and what of that might contribute materially to the success or failure of the idea here. We don't even know why you hate it, just that you do.

Wilkey

I didn't and still don't see any reason to justify my post. I stated a fact. And that should be enough. I agree 100% with Neal that there is no reason to change a formula that works.

I'm sorry you have gotten tired of being asked over and over and over ad nauseum about fake Cubans bro, but you brought that down upon yourself, once you took the mantle of "CP's resident Cuban expert" around your capable shoulders.

Shawn

 

[Ginseng]

I had a pretty good hold on most of what I needed to know and on many of the members' personalities before I even signed up. In other words, I got to know CP before I made the commitment to join and it really helped me avoid "newbie mistakes" and all the nonsense that sometimes comes with them.

I know my experience is likely unique, but I thought it would be beneficial to others to know that at least one member was gained and retained by the community that we have here, not simply by the information available.

Alan,

Therein lies the crux of the matter. One critical question that we could ask is how much "homework" should we expect of new or prospective members? Another is whether or not the systems and resources facilitate this in the best, most inviting way possible that is still consistent with the core values of CigarPass. These are questions at the heart of the matter.

I get the feeling that some feel that in providing a softer, buffered entry into the community we'll start to let in "asshats." This makes no sense to me at all. If anything, a Newbie area would be the first, low impact screening area for members. IMO, this idea has more upside than downside. Knuckleheads will still get screened and members who might otherwise have been deflected by the "get it or get out" mentality have the chance to transition in more on their terms. Hey, that sounds a lot like a welcoming situation. As to the downside, I can only think of one: that a very few will see their opportunities to take out the shit-kicking boots diminished.

That's fine, Shawn. In fact I wasn't soliciting an explanation or elaboration. I was pointing out that you stated a fact and tied it to a an opinion in such a way as to suggest that we should make an inference. An inference that is not logically supported i.e., "I hate newbie forums because it caused more problems than it fixed."

As for the Cuban thing, I understand this now. Believe me, I do. Heavy hangs the head...or am I Damocles today?

I've seen a lot of good points made here. The vast majority of respondents in this thread have posted with goodwill and without needing to resort to grade school pokes. We can do the work that needs to be done here without denigrating the diverse approaches and viewpoints we each bring to the table. To those who have stuck to the high road, you have my thanks and most profound respect.

Rod and members, I feel I've said my piece and presented my thoughts. Whatever the the course, it won't change my affection for the community and the people here. In closing, I don't really think that these relatively superficial structural changes will change the nature of the society here. I do believe that it will merely soften the way some new members will enter it.

Best,
Wilkey

 

[BlindedByScience]

One thing that just occurred to me - if the "NoObIe Lounge" gets set up, it needs to be made very clear that any "for sale" items or trades are STRICTLY off limits in the noobie forum. I can just imagine some asshole swooping in, making a couple of "hello there" posts, and sticking it to a couple of new guys in the new guys forum under the radar of our normally watchful eyes.

Heck, I'd make any FS or FT offers in the noobie forum an instant ban, and make the rule well known. But, that's just me.....

As usual, in two sentences Sam said what it took the rest of us two pages to communicate. That guy is good.....

Good discussion, gents - B.B.S.

 

[khari]

I've been part of a few forums with newbie forums. I don't think we'll have to worry about bad sales going on under our noses. I'm sure plenty of the more established members will check in there often enough. But I agree. No sales in the newb forum. Chances are that was a given though.

 

[Rod]

There will never be moderators at CP. If we did such a thing, we would be just like everyone else. We're unique in the sense that we're a community.

If a newbie forum is setup, there will not be a board of directors. Doing something like that would be getting too close to the whole moderation principle.

A newbie lounge would only facilitate interaction between new members, let them learn the features of the board, interactive with others, ask "stupid" questions, etc. Absolutely no way would they be allowed to post FS ads or participate in trades. No way at all.

If setup, the newbie lounge would be a sub-forum of the "Introduce Yourself" area; therefore, it would not take up real estate on the forum homepage.

Last night I made some changes to the registration process. When a new user goes to register, he is now presented with big red letters stating to read the new members guide; and also not to join this community unless you plan on becoming an active member (no one post wonders). I don't care about quick growth. Our core is already setup, our rules are in place, they're being enforced, lets continue to build the community as we receive quality membership. Every new member has to earn their trust, it's not given to them. Every new member has my respect upon joining, however they do not have my trust until they earn it - that's fair, considering what CP is all about and the type of activities we offer here.

We have a system that works, let's keep with it. Let's continue with encouraging all new members to be active in the community, and weed out the ones who don't.

 

[Mike33]

Excellent post Rod :thumbs:

 

[BlindedByScience]

Thank you, Rod - B.B.S.

 

[NorCalCigarLover]

I don't really see the need for a "newbie forum" area, I would hate for a bunch of new guys to come into CP and I stay in their room hidden from the rest of us. I would probably stay out of such a room and wouldn't be able to build any new relationships, I actually appreciate meeting new members and making new friends.

As I stated earlier, I do get tired of the redundant questions at times but that's my problem, one of biggest reasons I stay out of the humidor room. I simply stay out of those conversations unless someone PM's me with a direct question. I could see Wilkey's frustration building over the past couple of months and was just waiting for him to pop :laugh: . It took me a while to learn that I didn't have to answer everyone's questions all of the time.

 

[JHolmes763]

SamClemmons made the best point and he did it with a single sentence and no charts - we're pushing 10K because the system we have works.

If you read the newb's first post, use your head. If he is a chew toy, he'll get some teeth marks. If he's worth a shit, he'll take it and come back. Those who have been around a year or two have seen enough to be able to tell. You don't need six sigma for that! Common sense!

And there's been no change over the course of gathering those 10K members? Yes the system works, but it also changes over time, however slight. Once again, the asshats and those with bad intentions will be rooted out regardless of whether people are a little nicer to the ignorant newbs. If someone can't handle that change, maybe they should just stay away from the newbs.

 

[Putz Mulligan]

This reminds me of being in boarding school and getting the crap beat out of me every day of my freshman year (hazing) and then upon returning from summer vacation being told there is a new law forbidding hazing! I still feel jilted after all these years because it was MY turn to whoop some ass, I earned it! :sign: Obviously that is a slightly different situation but it's not that different. I say leave it as it is as I have yet to see anyone not get what the deserve............and this is both ways, good and bad! Some nOObs have been awarded for outstanding achievements and others have been shown the door. The system has worked and it will continue to work. Respect is earned here and this includes stepping into large piles of manure resulting in a reprimand or two and ultimately what did not kill them only made them stronger within the community. Many of our more well known and highly regarded members went through this process.

 

[lurch]

I like the idea of a Newbie Forum. My first month here was a little less than a year ago and I'll be honest, I was mighty nervous with my first couple posts. I think a 'No Frills' Newbie Forum would alleviate some of those "first post jitters". I'm not saying that people shouldn't be held accountable for what they say but it does make sense for the newer folks to have a place to converse amongst themselves.

I think about it this way, Pipes has it's own forum, Alcohol has it's own, ISOMs have it's own, why not give Newbie's their own? Newbies are as big a part of this community as pipes, alcohol, and ISOMs. This way all the uninformed have a place to share their missteps and triumphs. I know when I first joined I would have loved to have a place to go where I knew I was going to get a fresh, new answer instead of something that happened 3 years ago which is what you usually find when you search.....

I vote YES for Proposition NewbieForum....

 

[chainer]

Just thought I'd chime in here real quick:

As a newbie, I don't think it was very hard or difficult to get started on CP... CP offers many ways to "get your feet wet" to everyone. The newbie trade is a great way to build reputation... Partaking in discussions that you can offer sound advice or actually weigh in on is another way to get your name around. Being respectable and knowledgeable, while learning, is possible, and is something that I think you should expect from everyone. Cigar smoking is not for children, and I think it comes with a certain level of maturity.

Look at all the great members who have joined this year... Wouldn't most of you (us) agree that the majority of people on this board are members that you would want in your own communities? If that is the case, which I think it is, then isn't CP working out how it is supposed to?

I think the way CP works is great; if a newbie makes a mistake, then they should be told they have, and be directed on how to fix it or avoid the situation again. This has happened to me on several occasions... The newbies true colors show when they choose if they want to stick around or go to the next forum for a quick fix or quick deal.

Another aspect I really like about CP is the lack of a newbie forum... Right after you join, you are expected to act like everyone else in the community... You feel more like a citizen of the board, rather than just some scrub who has joined and has a long uphill road ahead of them.

Hope none of this came out wrong... I'm lovin CP, and it is a fun way to spend 30-45minutes a day, just browsing the forums and posting around. Thanks for the lovely board, Rod!

 

[sonuvabum]

This has been a great thread. Good open discussion of a real concern that affects the whole community.

I don't know that building a "House of nOOb" is the answer. I tend to feel the same as many here, that it ain't broke, no need to fix it.

Furthermore, the comments about this being a great COMMUNITY really rings true with me because I hate the drama, I hate the flamers, and I hate general rudeness of most every form. This community (and that word is very appropriate here) does very good at controlling these problem areas as well as many others (like moochers, trolls and the like). In fact, I don't participate in hardly any other forum sites because I'm so spoiled to CP and the way it operates.

I very seldom answer the nOOb's 1st post questions, if I did though, it would be a very quick and general answer tempered with a strong suggestion to introduce themselves and to also experiment with the Search option.

I like Rod's note about showing new registrations the rules. I don't know if that means new members go to that thread by default when their registration is complete or not. However, if they are presented with that info from the "git-go" and they choose to ignore it, well then, what happens, happens. I also liked the idea of a nOOb FAQ (which is probably already covered by a couple of dozen pinned topics) and a thread that compiles links for such things might be a good place to start. There are already a coupe of threads out there that do just that. We just need to make it easier for the new guys to find them.

Anyway, back on track....My vote (not that this is a democracy) is to keep it the way it is.

Nice discussion boys.

:thumbs:

 

[Macion Grey]

A newbie forum may end up alienating new members with a 'kiddy-pool' type setup, that might make integration with CP's distinct style a longer, stranger process.

I echo chainer's statements as a fellow newbie. I had no problem getting started after introducing myself and taking the time to read around before launching into it. It just takes a little damn maturity! I don't know about the rest of you, but immature members of any community are more of a strain than a boon in my book.

 

[The Green Monkey]

I haven't been here long enough to have any perspective on the expected benefits and drawbacks to creating a n00b forum (both sides certainly present compelling arguments) but as someone who is still very new to cigars and even newer to CP, I still find myself using the search feature pretty regularly, whether for humidor/storage questions, deciphering abbreviations and terminology, curiosity at seeing what others thought of the same cigars I've tried, etc. Since discovering how to finesse the search engine better (remember those + signs...) and doubling up with the Google function at the bottom of the page, it isn't much of an concern for me anymore, but I do think that the 'annoying repetitious predictable n00b questions' aspect of the central issue could be significantly mitigated by grouping all of these sorts of novice/one-post wonder topics in a single, unavoidably easy-to-find place which a n00b could consult before posting, just as sonuvabum and other posters have suggested.

Perhaps the ongoing 'threads into articles' project may prove to be a useful beginner's resource that might allay some of the frustration stemming from the same basic questions being raised over and over. Who knows, there might even be a book deal in there somewhere. I know I would have bought a copy of Cigars for Dummies had one been available 6 months ago. I probably still would today.

 

[Jonesy]

We have a system that works, let's keep with it. Let's continue with encouraging all new members to be active in the community, and weed out the ones who don't.

With everything that's been said in this thread, I'm not sure that there's a more powerful statement that's been made than this.

 

[AVB]

In this day and age the odds of someone joining who is a complete computer illiterate is small and getting smaller every day. The ability to use a search function does not decrease because you joined CigarPass. The changes to the registration process are welcome and should include (IMO) filling out ones profile to some minimal level along with a direct link to the introduction forum when the registration is complete. The lack of fully joining the community says something to me right up front.

I don't agree with the noobie forum if anyone is keeping track.

 

[lordlister]

As I stated earlier, I do get tired of the redundant questions at times but that's my problem, one of biggest reasons I stay out of the humidor room. I simply stay out of those conversations unless someone PM's me with a direct question. I could see Wilkey's frustration building over the past couple of months and was just waiting for him to pop :laugh: . It took me a while to learn that I didn't have to answer everyone's questions all of the time.

Taking a stroll through the Humidor room, I've come to the conclusion that we already have a Noobie lounge.

 

[MadMonk]

I've sat on the sidelines reading all the replies. I keep asking myself "what action contributes to the universal good of the community"?

As a new member of this community, I really don't have enough experience to suggest one course of action over another. I will say that lending a hand to a new member is admirable, and pouncing on someone who innocently missteps is disturbing.

I do think that most of the folks here are well intentioned. Some go along on an even keel. Some are very gracious, and I've seen a few who seem to love to jump on someone who makes a mistake, even calling a minor misstep to the attention of others, as if to say, "lets get him boys". An example would be that this angry mob gives a newbie advice, but does not give him enough info to successfully apply the "advice".
The noobie, in his "ignorance" screws up, it costs him, and he complains or defiantly "thanks" the advisors for the lousy advice. Then the advisors pile up on the noobie, yet again, failing to see that it was their shortcomings, piled on top of the noobies shortcomings that created a more profound negative situation.

We all have to try and remain humble in life. Try not to be overbearing. And try to temper our ego when dealing with a "subordinate". Tough love insinuates that forgiveness abides in the consciousness of both parties. In most situations, applying a firm hand is much differant, and much more effective, than going straight for the kill. It also builds respect and admiration. Both parties walk away better for the exchange.

I've witnessed some incredible insights in this thread. Just brilliant and eloquent expressions of ideas and ideals. This is why I enjoy this community. This is why I plan to hang around a while, grow with it, and hope like hell that I can help others grow, and enjoy it, as much as I have.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Personally, I'm not for the newbie forum idea. I agree that it just creates a seperation between members of newbies and fog's and I don't think that's what CP is trying to accomplish here. Some initial guidance as to what 'this' forum is about along with guidelines and suggestions upon entering this community can be of great assistance to the new guys. (preferably by email or during registration) Although not a solution to the topic but could indeed help. I don't think we can just rely on them reading pinned posts when they dive into CP. From my perspective CP is unlike ANY other forum I've been apart of and it's taken quite awhile for me to feel comfortable and learn the do and don'ts of this forum. I've come to realize that there will be people who are not familiar as to what goes on in the various types of online communities and smokers are becoming younger and younger these days. IMO, CP seems to be running just fine the way it is. The numbers says it all.