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$100 for a cigar?!?!?!?!?!

Steve, I'd be curious to know who you believe is selling Davidoffs in this manner. The reason there are a lot of Davidoffs still available is that they indeed did not sell well during the late 80's and early 90's. They were inferior to many of the other Cuban brands made at the same time. Which means that they were stuck in the humidors and storage rooms of a lot of people/stores and not sold. Then comes the cigar boom and the collectors get into these humidors and buy everything they can find up. Now, the cigar boom is over and they are ready to unload them. When they do, they find that people are willing to be a premium and they take them to auction. The diehard collector who decided to hold onto them and not unload them at auction, now holds some prime "real estate". They also still believe them to be inferior to the same brands they thought they were inferior to in the late 80's. I have a few friends who smoke pretty much nothing but Davidoffs and Dunhills and have for sometime. They know what is what and are still able to find real ones with not much trouble and while they pay a premium, it's still below the average price you see online.
Another thing to remember is that Havana cigars in the late 80's and early 90's were not made with the same aged tobacco as today's cigar are rolled with (though it's getting better in the last couple of years). They were made using aged leaf already. It is not only next to impossible for that to happen now, because of the boom, drought, hurricanes and blue mold, but also because production is higher than in the "old days". Zino Davidoff knew how to blend cigars and knew the importance of aging. It is likely that while he received a nice selection of leaf for his cigars, he was probably not getting the top end leaf that was earmarked for the regular production cigars. Which would lead him to say tehy were crap. He may have also had some incentive to get folks to not buy them and make Cubatabaco be stuck with stuff they could not sell. IMHO, his blends have really only blossomed in the last 5-7 years.
I'm not doubting that there are retailers out there who do what you said, just that I don't know who it is and sure would like some insight. ( I think I may know who you may be eluding to, though) There are very few of the folks who are selling these online (official retailers) that I don't trust, but if someone knows more than I do on the subject, I sure would like to know about it.
 
I found these prices from an authentic online source:


Cohiba Esplendidos 25'S Old label 1992 USD 3,100
Cohiba Esplendidos 25'S 1994 USD 1,045
Cohiba Esplendidos 25'S 1995 USD 1,020
Cohiba Esplendidos 25'S 1996 USD 896
Cohiba Esplendidos 25'S 1997 USD 880

R&J Coronas pre 1985 25'S 1984 USD495

Davidoff cuban N0 2 20's paper pack USD 1,120
Davidoff cuban Margaux 25's USD 2,987
Davidoff cuban latour 25's USD 2,987
Davidoff cuban N0 4000 25's USD 2,897
Davidoff Aniversario 20's Display box USD 14,200
Davidoff cuban N0 3000 25'S USD 1,269
Davidoff cuban N0 1000 25'S USD 1,269
Davidoff cuban N0 2 25'S USD 1,613
Dom Perignon 10'S USD 2,500
Dom Perignon 25'S USD 10,400

DUNHILL Cuban
Dunhill Estupendo 10'S USD 4,300
Dunhill Habana Club 5'S USD 2,960
Dunhill Cabineta 25'S USD 12,000

:0 :0 :0
 
I've got a few Gurkha Toro's pre 2000 that I'll let you have at only $125 each. They must be worth it 'cause I'm charging a lot of money for them :p
 
Matt: First, a favor. I'm almost 60 and wear trifocals. Please use paragraphs and spacing to separate ideas. It really makes your excellent post easier for me to read.

No, no, no!!!!!!!! The reasoning behind the statement that there are many, many thousands of vintage Davidoffs available because they were of inferior quality is absolutely ridiculous. Humidified storage of cigars is very expensive. No one, and I mean no one, deliberately stores pallets of crap for a decade. Of course, there were individual cigar smokers who may have stored a few dozen boxes, but the quantity of vintage Davidoffs offered for sale for the past several years is so far beyond that which would have been stored by individuals that the statement that this quantity was stored by aficianados is ludicrous.

There is little doubt that most "vintage Davidoffs" did not begin as Davidoffs. Zino Davidoff, before he died, remarked that there were more "Davidoff cigars" floating around than he had commissioned to be manufactured.

I often hear people quote the article that James Suckling wrote in 1993 in Cigar Aficianado, Cigar Aficianado article and treat the information as though a decade hasn't passed. Much of Suckling's information, you'll note, if you read the article, is anecdotal and dated. What is very salient to this discussion is the line in the article:
There are rumors of large stocks of Cuban Davidoffs still in Cuba.
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Would it surprise anyone if Castro, periodically, "released" a carload of vintage Davidoffs? Believe me, more than Davidoffs were produced at the El Laguito factory. When Castro needs foreign exchange, I don't doubt, for a moment, that "Vintage Davidoffs" suddenly appear. They could have begun as any brand.

Let us assume, for a moment, that you are an authorized Habanos vendor in Hong Kong, New Zealand, Israel, etc. and you have some difficulty maintaining a respectable inventory for your international customers. Your government sales representative from the Cuban Cigar industry informs you that with your order, you may also purchase X-quantity of Vintage Davidoffs. You know these will be a very high profit item, and, more importantly, consider what kind of delivery you'll get on your current order if you decline to purchase the "Davidoffs." Do you question whether these were made under contract to Davidoff in 1991 and prior?

Anyone who spends excessively to smoke alleged "Vintage Davidoffs" is doing so because of the status ascription, not because of the joy of smoking a quality cigar. Zino, when he broke with the Cuban cigar industry, said there were boxes of Davidoff cigars hitting the market, that only had two or three smokeable cigars in a box of twenty-five. The odds are that a truly smokeable Vintage Davidoff never was made under contract by Davidoff.

Added: Regarding Matt's comment that, perhaps, Davidoff wasn't getting its share of quality leaf. Let's stop and think about that statement. The American embargo of Cuban tobacco began in 1961, and thirty years later, Zino Davidoff said the quality of Cuban cigars had deteriorated to the point he was pulling out of Cuba. Davidoff, for most cigar smokers, was the quality benchmark of the Cuban cigar industry. If any factory got the best leaf, it was El Laguito, for the production of Davidoff.

Another addition: I do want to make it perfectly clear that I still hold the opinion that you should spend on a cigar whatever you, personally, think is appropriate. It's very unlikely that I'm going to spend more than $5.00 per cigar for my "regular" smokes. As you age, regretfully, your ability to discriminate taste becomes less and less. There are days when I'm not sure I can distinguish one wrapper from another, without looking.
 
Steve*R said:
The odds are that a truly smokeable Vintage Davidoff never was made under contract by Davidoff.
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I disagree... :lookup:


Steve, do you venture into vintage cigars often?
 
Devin Cole asked:
Steve, do you venture into vintage cigars often?
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Not any more. I've become sufficiently disillusioned by the known proliferation of fakes and my own inability to discern them by taste, that I wouldn't consider spending the money for "vintage" cigars.

I will say this. If I am in London, at a respected tobacconist, and the opportunity avails itself to purchase and leisurely smoke an aged Cuban cigar, which was aged by the tobacconist himself, I will make the purchase.

Allow me to add another thought. Cigars are an organic consummable. No two are identical. They may be similar, but never identical, unless they are machine made of homogenized tobacco. Two cigars out of the same box may be as different as two different brands. Add years of age to cigars made from tobacco grown from a specific local during a specific year and the discriminatory characteristics are likely to become less and less obvious.

Like any collectable, vintage cigars take on a value of their own, due to a perceived scarcity. A poorly rolled cigar, made with inferior tobacco doesn't become valuable because it has miraculously become a wonderful smoke. It becomes valuable because of the perceived rarity of the cigar. People who collect vintage cigars have a vested interest in the market retaining and/or increasing the value of their collection. The discovery that many are or could be replicas does not sit well.

Some years ago, a former relative (divorce) sold a portion of his vintage Cuban cigar collection at a Zurich auction. It was reported that his gross was in seven figures. When asked, confidentially, why he sold this portion of his collection, when he did, he reportedly said that he thought that President Clinton would end the embargo and the result would devalue his investment.

It's easy to understand why there are those who are adamant that their vintage collection is all genuine. No one wants to find out that their Degas was painted by The Starving Artists Group.
 
Steve, you make a lot of assumptions in your theories. Making too broad of a stroke when talking about "perceived rarity"....... only holds true if the rarity is indeed "perceived".

As for the "alledged fakes"...... no doubt there has been some that throw up a pretty internet site and haul in a net full of unknowlegeable people with their fakes. Happens all the time day in and day out. If you are alleging someone specific is doing this please PM me with details. I would be most interested.
 
Allofus123 said:
If you are alleging someone specific is doing this please PM me with details. I would be most interested.
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As would I Kenny.
 
Steve, you make a lot of assumptions in your theories.
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Theories....assumptions....?? Spend over forty years in the cigar world, and you'll learn that what I've posted is far from theory or assumption.

Believe what you wish to believe.

I believe each of you should be free to purchase, buy, collect, trade, or sell any cigar at any price you can get, but I also believe there's a responsibility on the part of those who have years of experience to caution those who may be new.

Just yesterday, a long time friend showed me a couple of counterfeits he had just acquired. There was no pretense that these were vintage habanos. He bought them to smoke. To the best of his knowledge they were rolled in the Canary Islands of 100% Cuban tobacco. The bands, if they were not real, were perfect fakes. There is no way anyone could tell if these cigars were counterfeit or authentic, even by smoking them. 100% Cuban tobacco cigars are rolled legally every day in the Canary Islands. With bands designating Made in the Spanish Canary Islands, these cigars sell by the box for about 74 Euros; with bogus Cuban bands, anywhere from twice to three times that amount in the U.S. The incentive to take advantage of the American consumer is very great and profitable.
 
Steve, I do respect your experience or perceived experince. I say perceived only because unlike a large number of folks who I have met and know personally, you and I have not met.

That being said, I believe you are mistaken on some points. There are stocks of vintage cigars in storage all around the world. Serious aficionados did not start collecting during the boom or after, they had been collecting for years before. Just look at the auctions that pop up at Christie's, Sotheby's, etc. Those cigars were not just laying around someone's attic collecting dust. They were part of a collector's estate and while occasionally they are in poor condition, for the most part they were taken care of by their owners. They weren't made at the last minute by Castro or Habanos SA. to boost the sales of cigars.

I don't doubt for one minute that there are people out there who do as you say, counterfeiting Davidoff's for their own personal gain. But, to paint such a broad stroke and claim that most of them are not real is asinine. We not talking about 30 year old cigars. "Late model" Davidoffs are barely ten years old and were not highly regarded when they were new. It's easy to see why there would an available supply.

As for Zino Davidoff's comments blasting Havana leaf, he did have something to lose if he kept with the thought that Havana leaf was superior to all others. If it was indeed true, than the 1980's-early 90's Montecristos that are smoking so wonderfully right now would taste like crap.

I personally love the taste of a well kept Davidoff but, I can't disagree that the price that is demanded for them is sometimes outrageous. But, the prices that most people see these available are generally very limited. These retailers "specialize" in these kind of cigars and charge a premium. The cigars are available for less, just not online.

Well, my kids just came home and I have to cut this at what I've said, for now.

Steve, this easier to read? :)
 
Steve*R said:
Not any more. I've become sufficiently disillusioned by the known proliferation of fakes and my own inability to discern them by taste, that I wouldn't consider spending the money for "vintage" cigars.
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It makes perfect sense that if one cannot discern the real ones from the fakes, they should not be buying vintage cigars. While there are certainly dishonest vendors that sell fakes, there are also honest vendors that do indeed sell authentic aged cigars.


Sorry to hear your personal experiences have been unpleasant.
 
If you can afford the better things in life, good for you!

I can't and I'm just a little bit envious. But, you can not bitch about people who can!
 
Sorry, I just stopped laughing at the first part of this thread. :lookup: True I cant pay a hundred bucks for a cigar that I would smoke. Truth be known, whats the differnce between having 20,30 cigars worth a 2 or 3 bucks each and $100 cigar. :0 Besides Ill bet anyone here that says $100 dollar cigar is crzy to spend on a cigar never counted how much they have recieved in bombs :p
 
Quality vrs. Quantity tough choice, there is to much ive not yet tried, have to go with quantity for now , although I believe there's nothing wrong with, and looking forward to my first premium cigar.
 
Steve R is a hundred percent correct in his assesment of the fakes on the market.

When I was in Cuba in October 2000 I bought a box of 1994 Gold Medals for a 120 bucks. These exact same cigars were being sold in the US for over a thousand bucks a box. Yes they are cuban but no they were not 1994 original Gold Medals. I could have bought all the Davidoffs I wanted, but I chose to pass. The person who had these made tried to get them on to a Christie's auction, but Chrisites told him no. This maggot sells all kinds of Davidoff's and Dunhill's to many of the posers on the more popular cigar sites. He has connections at certain factories in Cuba and has whatever he feels like made up. It is major league scam that goes on down there. This person is just one of many doing this.


Back to the subject. Partagas Don Ramons are a joke. They are tastless pieces of **** that are way past their prime. They aren't worth 5 bucks never mind a hundred. I can afford to smoke Dunhills and Davidoff's but I refuse to pay the price. For the Price of one Dom Perrignon, I can buy a whole cab of Partagas Coronas, I'd rather have the cab.
 
Raff's cigars... :angry:


Harris, no one is saying that there is not an abundance of fakes on the market, but to say that all are is ludicrous.


I have to agree about the Don Ramons.
 
I just smoked a Montecristo Cigar Delacroix and this cigar really tasted like the 150. Except nowadays the 150 is just past it's time and milder than most Macanudos. This is based on the 2 150's and 2 Monte Delacroix I smoked. I suggest smoke the Montes and save the money.

Emo
 
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