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Please Remember Them

the beauty of this country is our freedom to speak, feel,
and think as we choose. this right is not given to us by
our government. it is ours. inalieable. it means someone
touting their beliefs loudly, and someone else touting the
opposite just as loudly. there is no right or wrong viewpoint.
just viewpoints. that's what makes this country great, and
why others hate us. did iraq have anything to do with 9-11?
i don't know. i'm not privy to cia intelligence any more than
anyone else on this board. i do know that afghanistan is very
poor, and that iraq has trillions in oil, but beyond that i don't
know. war is always a horrible thing. people die in horrible ways.
it should never be undertaken lightly, as i'm sure it wasn't.

this day however, is not about that. it's about remembrance of
loved ones lost, innocence lost, security lost. it's about the day
the world changed forever. terrorism is no longer something
that happens "over there". those that died on this day were
not soldiers in a war. they were you and me. their only act was
to go to work, or go to shop, or board a flight. this day is to
remember them, and those that loved them.
as for Mr. Philip Mastrandrea, his memory was honored by me
this morning when i smoked his cigar in the most beautiful setting
i could find, on a bluff overlooking a lake. i did so with reverence,
and remembrance. thank's for the smoke philip, and i hope the
view made you happy. and thank you, joe , for passing it on.
i was more than honored, i hope i did his memory justice.

todd
 
Good on ya, Bro!! Wish I could have been with you in person today, but please know that I was, in my heart. Thank you for carying the torch in my stead.
 
Michael,

After reading your posts on this subject I think your dislike of the Bush administration is really the problem here. I fully respect your right of free speech but I believe with free speech comes a responsibility of getting your facts straight, not clouding the issue with politically misguided propaganda.

I’m not sure where you get this from:
No one has to die. What's ignorant is that the American public is swallowing what this administration is saying wholesale- no questions asked. THey hit us- we hit them back. Hit who back? Those wern't Iraqi's on those planes. where's the connection?
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They hit us (now that would be Afghanistan, not Iraq) and we did hit them back (Afghanistan). Where on earth you think that invading Iraq was a response to the September 11th terrorist attacks is beyond me.

Iraq was a threat to us and the world, pure and simple. Hitler was a threat that went unchecked for WAY too long, remember him? Hitler didn’t cross our borders either but he had to be dealt with. Hussein has been directly responsible for mass murder for way to long as well and its about time someone finally did something about it.

I believe my Congressman who sits on the Armed Services Committee who is a former CIA agent when he tells me that Iraq presented a clear and present danger and something had to be done. You will never agree with that and this is where you and I will never see eye to eye.

I don’t think anyone here in this forum or anywhere else in this country is not in favor of you speaking your mind but your diatribe reminds me too much of the nonsense that I see in the letters to the editor and the opinion sections of the liberal newspapers here in the northeast.

I really think you went a little too far with this one:
Anyone else remember the days when Americans were allowed to question there government without being called "anti- American, or Ignorant, or haters of America and freedom?" Well stick around pretty soon you won't be able to remember the days when we could speak our minds.....
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You can’t be serious on that one, I know you aren’t. Okay, okay you just gotta be blowing off a little steam or something but again, you remind me too much of the ultra-left wingers that are STILL pissed ‘cause Bush won the election.

Darn, if Gore had ONLY carried his home state……….. Tennessee, right?

Sorry to tweak ya but I just couldn’t resist.

Don’t get ticked at me, its all just in fun.

Everything will be all right and the world really IS a much better place without Saddam and Osama. Now I know you’ve got to agree with me on that!!
 
once again though, it is nice to live in a country
where mike is free to voice his opinions without fear of
retribution. this is the mistake that so many people
make, to confuse consequences with retribution.
take the dixie chicks. so many liberals said their being
blackballed from country stations was violating their
right to free speech. last time i checked, they didn't
get thrown in jail. what one must realize is that unpopular
speech has consequences. right or wrong it does. people
absolutely have the right to voice whatever opinions they
have, they must, however, be prepared for the fallout.
i personally dissagree with what brother mike is saying.
i believe it is a little misguided. i will, however, defend to
the death his right to say it.

todd
 
Well said Todd, you make excellent points.

Now, in my case I know there will be fallout (I don't think Michael's gonna add me to his Christmas card list anytime soon and If I ask him to make a contribution to one of my Republican politician friends, he's gonna have a few choice words for me) but I know he won't take it personally.

I don't agree politically with him or Joe M. but that doesn't mean we still can't enjoy life's other pleasures (CigarPass, etc.) together.

Is this (the good 'ole USA) a great place or what??
 
No I am not pissed at anyone, I am just passionate about my opinions. But you do know that the nazi party is right wing right ? :0

Interesting point that was made about consequenses and retrobution.

Just to enlighten you there have been retributions over my opinion. Here in TN people who protested the war had govt. officals come and ask for there names. The patrioit act is a whole nother discussion, but let's just say it's pretty scary (and I thought it was the Democrats who wanted to take away the freedom???) Did you know about the law that was introduced in oregon trying make protesting a terrosit act.

Take a look around you guys. I started this whole mess because I mentioned the kids in Iraq. That made me "anti-american." THat is much more than just a little fall out.
Anyone who stands up and says look I don't want out govt. sending anymore boys to war gets labeld as a anti american Sounds like neo-mcarthism to me. The days of free speech and debate are over.

To respond to the iraq/afghan thing. Who gave al quaida 2 billion dollars to train with and kill russians? The regan administration. Who sold Sadam his defense network weeks before we bombed him and put him into power in the first place? The Bush Administratrion. As far as I am concerned they are as responsible for 9-11 as the nuts who carried it out.

I'll bet the people in Nazi Germany who objected to Hitler were probably labeld as anti-German.
There is a fervor in this country right now that is damn right scary.

If you don't believe me go on an aol or other political board and say "I don't agree with our govt." and see what people say to you. It won't be "whatever liberal." It will be much more serious.

Michael
 
I started this whole mess because I mentioned the kids in Iraq. That made me "anti-american."
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What was said was........

God bless all of the innocent children who were bombed back to the stoneage by our 'American Boys' because we want to rule the world.
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Yes yes Mike, we get it...... You are obviously much smarter then any of us or anyone else because you have the intellect to see the truth of things. Figuring things out most other people can't is sure evidence of your intleligence. You should feel very supior to the rest of poor idiots that are too dumb to see the truth.

You might want to reconsider the apropriateness of throwing around haphazard analogies to Hitler and Nazi's however. Just a thought.
 
you do know that the nazi party is right wing right ?
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C’mon Michael now you’re REALLY reaching. The Communist Party is left wing but so what, both extremes are ridiculous and your drawing parallels between right wing and the Nazis just seems like another case of you lashing out. I mean geez, I’m not too crazy about the left wing political philosophy but I don’t tell them they’re all “Commies.”

I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Patriot Act and I truly believe that a big government, tax and spend mindset (promoted by most Democrats) does indeed infringe on people’s freedom but as you mentioned, that’s a whole “nother” discussion.

I absolutely do not think you are “anti-American” and I think you’re really over reacting when ONE person in the entire world makes a comment to you in a semi-heated debate (earlier in this thread), I’d hardly conclude:
The days of free speech and debate are over.
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And, I’m not too sure about this one either
To respond to the iraq/afghan thing. Who gave al quaida 2 billion dollars to train with and kill russians? The regan administration. Who sold Sadam his defense network weeks before we bombed him and put him into power in the first place? The Bush Administratrion.
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Can you back this up with any real facts (and I don’t mean press releases from the Democratic National Committee) ‘cause I’d love to hear them.

I commend you for being passionate about your opinions but as I mentioned earlier I still think you have a responsibility to state those opinions accurately rather than tossing out crazy stories that I really don’t think can be substantiated.

As far as other political boards, ya kinda lost me as I don’t know what you mean by “much more serious”
 
Gibu,
I thought we were having a civalized conversation here, so just out of curiosity why are you being such a dick?

Michael
 
bigoh.gif
 
C’mon Michael now you’re REALLY reaching. The Communist Party is left wing but so what, both extremes are ridiculous and your drawing parallels between right wing and the Nazis just seems like another case of you lashing out. I mean geez, I’m not too crazy about the left wing political philosophy but I don’t tell them they’re all “Commies.”

Well OK. I guess I am reaching as far as rublicans reach when they call democrats or liberals commies. A fun fact though: You about rumsfield being the director of national security right. Any ideas who the only other person in history to hold that position was? Hint.. look back about 70 years to Germany.



I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Patriot Act and I truly believe that a big government, tax and spend mindset (promoted by most Democrats) does indeed infringe on people’s freedom but as you mentioned, that’s a whole “nother” discussion.

Well, I am not the only one who is scared to death by the patriot act. I do know it allowed the proposed legislation in Oregon.


I absolutely do not think you are “anti-American” and I think you’re really over reacting when ONE person in the entire world makes a comment to you in a semi-heated debate (earlier in this thread), I’d hardly conclude:

It's not just one person. DId you see how pissed gibu is getting about this. And every debate I have ever been on discussing this has had me called everything from a commie to a MF'er.



Can you back this up with any real facts (and I don’t mean press releases from the Democratic National Committee) ‘cause I’d love to hear them.

Dude, it's no secret that we backed Sadam against Iran in the 70's or that we gave Al Quaida money to defeat the russians in Afghanistan. Who do you think funded them?


I commend you for being passionate about your opinions but as I mentioned earlier I still think you have a responsibility to state those opinions accurately rather than tossing out crazy stories that I really don’t think can be substantiated.

As far as other political boards, ya kinda lost me as I don’t know what you mean by “much more serious”

All I mean is that this kind of debate turns ugly real quick. Gibu has condemed me as a person who think you all are stupid, and I don't. I think we are diamentrically opposed politically, but I respect everyone on CP, simply because they know what's up with cigars!

You want to see something enlightning rent Bowling for columbine this week-end, and let me know what you think. Plenty of stats in there regarding this stuff.
Michael
 
Talk about a communist... Michael Moore - Bowling for columbine!


Hooray! NRA!


I just had to say that. :(
 
Michael Moore is a member of the NRA (since he was little) and even won awards for being a great shot.

He does interview the president of the NRA though.

Check out the movie.

Michael
 
Time to give everyone a new target and exercise my freedom of speech.

I've been reading this thread and have to laugh at the references to Nazis (Hitler) and Republicans (Bush). Hitler, as we all know, led the Nazis party from an obscure regional party to a world threat by meticulous planning, and willpower. If you ever have a chance read Mien Kampf. A lot Hitler wrote about in this book he made happen. He made things happen through thought & strategic planning. However, I believe there has not been a more evil man to walk the face of this earth than Hitler, not even Osama.

Now the ugly part, and this is strictly my opinion don’t send Rush after me!

Our current President, to coin a phrase from NASCAR, is Bush league. He just happened to be in office, and the moment found him. Oh, wait a minute, he has started a war in Afghanistan (not finished), he is the FIRST President to send our nation to war unprovoked (and that war is not finished either). In addition, Boy George has ignored North Korea, which may or may not have nuclear weapons. And may or may not have a missile that could strike us west of the Rockies. The current administration consists of all the leftovers from the Nixon & Regan administrations, and it seems that they run the show. Boy George is nothing more than a figurehead on largest Bureaucracy that has ever been built in America. We now have the largest government ever. Our government is spending the most money ever. And there is currently no plan to remedy any of the problems. Lots of talk though. Talk, talk, talk… :sign:

Take the blinders off, try to see the big picture. This knee-jerk solution the current administration is offering will only cause more problems down the road. And by no means am I implying Gore would have done better. Hell this current mess would probably be double.

WE NEED AN ACTUAL PLAN & A LEADER WHO CAN EXECUTE THAT PLAN.

Again, this is only my opinion. As I always say “America love it, or leave it”

God bless the innocent that perished on 9/11.

Brent
 
It amazes me how some people (yes Mike, I have you and other liberals in mind when I say this), will complain about not being able to express their opinions or if they do will be bashed, when that is all that they do when a conservative states an opinion or expresses debate over what was said in the first place. Quite frankly I see the opposite in the terms that it is conservatives and republicans that get more stones thrown their way than the other.

You want to talk about comparing us conservatives to Nazism and Bush to Hitler? Excuse me but the Democratic party and liberal interests are trying harder and more successfully I might add about putting their objectives and wants on everyone else than the conservatives have ever done. Is the political areana more dominated by conservatives right now? Yep, but wasn't always so for the majority of the last half of the century and I am so tired of hearing liberals call foul.

Show me where you have had any of your personal civil liberties invaded and done away with or your bill of rights. Show me one thing that you personally can not do today that you couldn't do 10 years ago and then do please show me how this can totally be put on Bush and us conservatives. Mind you I want YOUR personal story, not someone on the net, not someone you don't know (or only know their side of things), what you personally have gone through.

Quite frankly it matters not what you or I think, our opinions on everything wrong in the world today, as you and I individually can't do a single thing on our own to change it. Furthermore neither of us our qualified to make such changes even if it was in our power - if it was we would already be on Capitol Hill running things. What we can control is our own lives and how we live them, and as far as I see, half of the anti-Bush thing is nothing but a way of placing blame on someone else for one's own shortcomings in their own life. I mean really, where has Bush come into your home, your personal life and messed it up so bad that you can not continue to make a living, be happy and plan for your future and the future of your own?

Sure, we can sit here and make grand sweeping statements refering about eveyrone and all of us, but c'mon since we want to be so personally vindictive towards things, let's have some personal examples instead of the grand standing and heavy generic, grand sweeping statements.

Now I have said this before and will say it again, this is a cigar board where I personally come for friendships and cigars. I go to CF to debate political opinion. Mike I do want to present you with an invitation to join over there, you can team up with a couple others who are as of high and passionate opinions as yourself and at a MUCH more increased pace than here (this thread would of already faded with 50 or more replies by now over there). I do warn you however, that in no way, shape or form is it as friendly as it is here - including the debate threads and there it gets a LOT more personal. Which by the way I just have to thank you for your views here as this is the worst and heated debate I have seen here in a year and of course you calling me a Nazi and backer of Hitler - that sure did take away a lot of the resentment I might have otherwise felt.

In case you didn't know, CF is http://www.cigarfamily.com very elitist, very touchy and newbie beware there (I don't say that as a threat, nor as a discouragement, it's just how it is over there and has been ever since I joined there a year ago, believe me when I say I am very much a lightwight over there and would be the least of your worries or on the other side of the debate forumn - however you will find friends - I would look up Jawtek for starters, you two will probably hit it off very well).

Sam
 
OK, EVERYONE STEP BACK FROM YOUR KEY BOARDS! Take a valium, put your podiums back in the closet and reread every post from the first to the last! Do you see what you have in front of you? Do you realize that people are getting pissy over the greatest freedom we have! There is Noooooooooooo possible way we are all going to agree with each other, and that is what makes us great! If it were the opposite, It would be Iraq! :0 There is no sense in starting rifts, There is no sense in pointing to a person and making him the bad guy for his views. We have that good given right, to speak as we may! Sam has made the point about other boards being how they are, CF {Sam got it on the head!} CD, Well if your not one of them, your just in the way of there little girls club. CP as satiated on the front page "The friendliest place on the net", is just that! So everyone pull your panties out of your crack and chill out! Remember "Freedom of speech"

Don't make me turn this frigin' car around! Cause I'll do it!! :angry:
 
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