Send Lawyers, Guns and Money Pass - below 50 RG only- Completed.

[Jonesy]

Brent, don't be so quick to take things personally. Everything you stated in your post was directed at me so I responded. I wasn't trying to put you down personally, but you know when you said "ok I'll put my prick hat on too" after directly quoting me, that I would do the same.
 
I'm sorry I did that Brent. I would rather have your friendship then to squabble over a pass run by a condescending prick who likes to veil his insults in niceties  example: "a quick turn around is always good. Brotherhood is more important than speed, so if a personal handoff and herf is feasible, that's a great way to go". This was done right after he quoted my rules to make me look like a dick because I asked for a quick turnaround but Brotherhood is more important than speed, so he looks like the good guy.

 

[CMontoya79]

Really try to stay out of this shtuff, but... Ok gentleman, can we stop making this a pissing contest/ my wangs bigger? We should learn from mistakes If this pass proves why these passes should not be allowed in the future than so be it. For now, I think we should just continue to provide any positive feedback that produces something that improves or betters things. I think this is helping personal user better understand passes, and that's a good thing. I believe Jonesy and ironpeddler also have valuable suggestions here. I do not believe anything here has been stated with malicious intent.

 

[modo22]

Yesterday I was going to suggest we have a video herf/chat to try and iron out what I thought where just misunderstood tones that can be taken out of context when reading someones words and not hearing them.  But now, at this point today, I do not know what to suggest as I now am reading what I believe to be some shots back and forth (outside of Brian and Brent, you two can hug it out on your own).   There are some great points being made here and this is a great one for the "learning books".  The pass host needs to be the final say on what the rules are.  I am a little confused as to why you posted Jonesy's pass info, but whatever.  We just need to move on, finish this pass per the pass hosts wants/needs, and end this one clean.  We can all agree it is alittle different, but one to learn on, I really appreciate Brian and Gary's comments (before things turned in the last day with "tone" confused responses) and it is important to hear coming from those who have been in several pass's and ran several as well.
 
Personal User, lets get back to the pass and firm up any left over rule clarifications if any.
thanks,
Ben

 

[Jonesy]

Really try to stay out of this shtuff, but... Ok gentleman, can we stop making this a pissing contest/ my wangs bigger? We should learn from mistakes If this pass proves why these passes should not be allowed in the future than so be it. For now, I think we should just continue to provide any positive feedback that produces something that improves or betters things. I think this is helping personal user better understand passes, and that's a good thing. I believe Jonesy and ironpeddler also have valuable suggestions here. I do not believe anything here has been stated with malicious intent.

I agree Ceasar. BUT, when someone tries to make me look like a dick, I'll be a dick and he's damn well gonna get a response and needs to be prepared for it. He's just using veiled attempts and subtleties to use my pass to make himself infallible in his own.
 
I've been around the block a few times, paid my dues quite a few times, and he's just stepping off of his porch. He'll get no slack from me and needs to learn that pretty damn quickly. 
 
 
BTW, I'm done here so you don't have to worry about me bothering this pass again. Just realize that multiple people have pm'ed me about looking at what was going on here, which is why I showed up in the first place. 
 
 
 
 
edited to remove what could have been construed as a threat.

 

[Joebunaga]

I don't think I'm alone in saying its uncomfortable to see infighting here. We're all BOTLs and this is a public forum. Advice from established members should always be respected by us newer guys, even if we dislike what we are presented with. Discussion is encouraged. I hope we can look at these discussions as a further education, without them becoming a splitting point for some of us. CP is all of us. We're going to disagree. There's no need to get personal.
 
I agree with Ben, lets finish this pass.
 
Joe

 

[CMontoya79]

Agreed, with these comments.

 

[Jonesy]

OK, I said a few things I shouldn't have and have been reminded of that by someone I respect greatly. I lost sight of the Brotherhood after so much good the Brotherhood has done for me lately. My apologies to Ken, Brent, and the rest of the people in this pass. I was pouring gas on a fire instead of being helpful and that's not what CP is about.

I should know enough not to post when I'm pissed off and I failed to do that on multiple occasions in this pass. It's not my job to watch over another pass and criticize the host for what he is doing when I'm not a part of the pass. I do look out for the good of CP, but what I did wasn't in the best interest of this pass or for CP.

 

[mmburtch]

 It's not my job to watch over another pass and criticize the host for what he is doing when I'm not a part of the pass. I do look out for the good of CP, but what I did wasn't in the best interest of this pass or for CP.

 
Actually, it's everybody's job to watch over passes.  Criticism is on that fine line between helpful and hurtful.  Not sure how much Brent is advising offline, so it's hard to say how much of this is first time host issues.  The rules aren't arbitrary and were put in place because this is what happens. 

 

[personal User]

 squabble over a pass run by a condescending prick who likes to veil his insults in niceties  example: "a quick turn around is always good. Brotherhood is more important than speed, so if a personal handoff and herf is feasible, that's a great way to go". This was done right after he quoted my rules to make me look like a dick because I asked for a quick turnaround but Brotherhood is more important than speed, so he looks like the good guy.

Jonesy, I complimented your guidance as an excellent example of guidance to the passers and better than mine. One difference was the minimum time frame.
 
The transfer between Ceaser and kendall transfer will be from 4/2 to 4/9 for a total of 7 days and I didn't want them to feel badly about that transfer so that is why I made that statement. I simply did not want my passers to change their plans or feel badly about not doing a quick turnaround, You can easily verify what I am saying by looking at the previous posts. I had no clue that you might consider that an insult.

 

[personal User]

I take full responsibility for my actions and my posts. I have received guidance from Brent on a number of things, but have not wanted to bother him on everything, Even so, I have acted on a number of things on my own and the final say on everything in this pass was mine.

 

.  I am a little confused as to why you posted Jonesy's pass info, 

 

In response to this 

 is a stewardship that exists in being the host...one that embodies the tradition, structure, code of conduct, and obligations of that position. 
 

and this.
 

 but there are certain things that don't change.

The item under discussion at the time was my rules clarification that players puts/takes within a  +/- $1 were preapproved.
 
I interpreted those comments to mean that I was not being a good steward by implementing that rule clarification.
 
Then, the next day one poster opens a high dollar pass where all puts/takes are preapproved (with no limitation), and the other poster was in the pass. 
 
So, how can it be that a one dollar preapproval +/-is not good stewardship one day in this pass then all puts/takes are preapproved with no limitation the next day in another pass?
 
I'm having a hard time understanding why you guys would disrupt my pass about something then you take a far more open limitation the very next day. 

 

[jfields]

There must be some confusion/misinterpretation on your end, or a mistake in a post Brian made somewhere. I can tell you with 100% certainty that P/T's have not been already preapproved in Brian's pass.

 

[personal User]

 

There must be some confusion/misinterpretation on your end, or a mistake in a post Brian made somewhere. I can tell you with 100% certainty that P/T's have not been already preapproved in Brian's pass.

 

I might have interpreted that wrong but it looks like that is what is said
 
Under Pass Arrives
 
 
"Publicly post your puts & takes, you don't have to wait on approval, your P/T's are pre-approved because every one of you guys are seasoned passers. The only thing I ask is you don't make large over puts that price out the guys at the end. "

 

[Jonesy]

 
I take full responsibility for my actions and my posts. I have received guidance from Brent on a number of things, but have not wanted to bother him on everything, Even so, I have acted on a number of things on my own and the final say on everything in this pass was mine.

 

.  I am a little confused as to why you posted Jonesy's pass info, 

 

In response to this 

 is a stewardship that exists in being the host...one that embodies the tradition, structure, code of conduct, and obligations of that position. 
 

and this.
 

 but there are certain things that don't change.

The item under discussion at the time was my rules clarification that players puts/takes within a  +/- $1 were preapproved.
 
I interpreted those comments to mean that I was not being a good steward by implementing that rule clarification.
 
Then, the next day opens a high dollar pass where all puts/takes are preapproved (with no limitation), and the other poster was in the pass. 
 
So, how can it be that a one dollar preapproval +/-is not good stewardship one day in this pass then all puts/takes are preapproved with not limitation the next day in another pass?
 
I'm having a hard time understanding why you guys would disrupt my pass about something then you take a far more open limitation the very next day. 
 

I never questioned your P/T's in this pass. If you've noticed, the lineup in my pass is made up of all guys with 6+years on CP and multiple passes under their belts. The reason it was brought up in your pass is that you've never been in a pass, run one, nor seen one run in your time here, plus you have first time passers. I put that the P/T's would be pre approved because everyone in my pass, unlike yours have 80+years of experience combined on CP and know enough about passes that over/under puts won't be a problem. Me pre approving them before hand has nothing to do with what's going on in your pass. Yours has been questioned because of your inexperience in doing so. I'm a firm believer in participating in a pass before running one, but since the rule has changed, there's nothing wrong with it. Each host can make there own rules for a pass, but in my opinion, you have to know how to run and participate in a pass properly before doing so which is why I'll be running a newbie pass in the fall.
 
 
I also apologized to you publicly if you don't recall since you decided not to quote that also. The written word is often harder to interpret tone where the spoken word, you know exactly what was meant. That's the reason I got upset. It seemed like you were questioning my commitment to Brotherhood by making the statement you did. If someone in my pass wants to make a handoff like Grateful1 and Rob300c, I certainly don't have a problem with that.
 
If you feel the need to respond to me, then respond to the whole post I make and not just the parts that you don't agree with.
Once the full lineup is set, like I told jfields on the phone today, a pm will be sent to all to discuss the rules and what should be changed and /or stay the same. 

 

[jfields]

 
 

There must be some confusion/misinterpretation on your end, or a mistake in a post Brian made somewhere. I can tell you with 100% certainty that P/T's have not been already preapproved in Brian's pass.

 

I might have interpreted that wrong but it looks like that is what is said
 
Under Pass Arrives
 
 
"Publicly post your puts & takes, you don't have to wait on approval, your P/T's are pre-approved because every one of you guys are seasoned passers. The only thing I ask is you don't make large over puts that price out the guys at the end. "
 

Evidently, I misunderstood a conversation I had with Brian this afternoon about this very subject, and evidently, I should of only been 99.9% certain. I stand corrected. 

 

[personal User]

 

 
I take full responsibility for my actions and my posts. I have received guidance from Brent on a number of things, but have not wanted to bother him on everything, Even so, I have acted on a number of things on my own and the final say on everything in this pass was mine.

 



.  I am a little confused as to why you posted Jonesy's pass info, 

 

In response to this 

 is a stewardship that exists in being the host...one that embodies the tradition, structure, code of conduct, and obligations of that position. 
 

and this.
 

 but there are certain things that don't change.

The item under discussion at the time was my rules clarification that players puts/takes within a  +/- $1 were preapproved.
 
I interpreted those comments to mean that I was not being a good steward by implementing that rule clarification.
 
Then, the next day opens a high dollar pass where all puts/takes are preapproved (with no limitation), and the other poster was in the pass. 
 
So, how can it be that a one dollar preapproval +/-is not good stewardship one day in this pass then all puts/takes are preapproved with not limitation the next day in another pass?
 
I'm having a hard time understanding why you guys would disrupt my pass about something then you take a far more open limitation the very next day. 
 

I never questioned your P/T's in this pass. If you've noticed, the lineup in my pass is made up of all guys with 6+years on CP and multiple passes under their belts. The reason it was brought up in your pass is that you've never been in a pass, run one, nor seen one run in your time here, plus you have first time passers. I put that the P/T's would be pre approved because everyone in my pass, unlike yours have 80+years of experience combined on CP and know enough about passes that over/under puts won't be a problem. Me pre approving them before hand has nothing to do with what's going on in your pass. Yours has been questioned because of your inexperience in doing so. I'm a firm believer in participating in a pass before running one, but since the rule has changed, there's nothing wrong with it. Each host can make there own rules for a pass, but in my opinion, you have to know how to run and participate in a pass properly before doing so which is why I'll be running a newbie pass in the fall.
 
 
I also apologized to you publicly if you don't recall since you decided not to quote that also. The written word is often harder to interpret tone where the spoken word, you know exactly what was meant. That's the reason I got upset. It seemed like you were questioning my commitment to Brotherhood by making the statement you did. If someone in my pass wants to make a handoff like Grateful1 and Rob300c, I certainly don't have a problem with that.
 
If you feel the need to respond to me, then respond to the whole post I make and not just the parts that you don't agree with.
 


I was responding to the parts which I felt needed clarification, the rest of the post is there if needed.
 
I do know exactly what was meant, and I assure you that I meant not the slightest malice or intent.
 
I have not personally attacked you or done anything to deserve the numerous names I have been called by you.
 
which I will note, still stand. If you are sincere in your apology to me please delete the negative personal comments about me from your previous posts.

 

[jfields]

The way I do understand the P&T's in his pass is that there is no need for preapproval (Maybe being missed with his explanation)waiting for the host. The group collectively can weigh in if they all fly, or is there is a concern over proposed trades because he trust the right decision to be made due to the amount of previous pass experience.   

Puts & Takes discussion will also publicly be posted for all to see for transparency.  

 

[Jonesy]

 
I have not personally attacked you or done anything to deserve the numerous names I have been called by you.
 
which I will note, still stand. If you are sincere in your apology to me please delete the negative personal comments about me from your previous posts.
 

I apologized sincerely once to you, Brent, and the members of the pass and that's what you get from me. I called you a condescending prick because that's what I (and MANY others) think by how you've treated people in this pass and the way you broke down my pass. So, don't expect an apology for that unless you change my mind in the near future.
 
Since we're on topic of how passes are run, why don't you tell the group how when you told Gary (ironpeddler) that you looked over his profile and thought he seemed qualified to be in your pass, but you didn't want him to post in your pass. What type of host is that? And you wonder why I think you're a condescending prick.

" I don't care what trades you come up with because I'm not putting rules in for certain cigars. All I ask is that if you take a limited or rarer cigar, you replace it with one or make up for it with age and or price"
 
 
get your quotes right also if you feel that there's nothing to do with pricing in my pass. This quote is from the very top paragraph..

 

[Jonesy]

BTW Ken, I've apologized (partly) and have explained myself. Don't you think it's time you forget about me and get thread back to being about the pass?

 

[personal User]

 

 

I have not personally attacked you or done anything to deserve the numerous names I have been called by you.
 
which I will note, still stand. If you are sincere in your apology to me please delete the negative personal comments about me from your previous posts.
 

I apologized sincerely once to you, Brent, and the members of the pass and that's what you get from me. I called you a condescending prick because that's what I (and MANY others) think by how you've treated people in this pass and the way you broke down my pass. So, don't expect an apology for that unless you change my mind in the near future.
 
Since we're on topic of how passes are run, why don't you tell the group how when you told Gary (ironpeddler) that you looked over his profile and thought he seemed qualified to be in your pass, but you didn't want him to post in your pass. What type of host is that? And you wonder why I think you're a condescending prick.

" I don't care what trades you come up with because I'm not putting rules in for certain cigars. All I ask is that if you take a limited or rarer cigar, you replace it with one or make up for it with age and or price"
 
 
get your quotes right also if you feel that there's nothing to do with pricing in my pass. This quote is from the very top paragraph..
 


"Until this pass is launched I would prefer you not post to the thread. I've closed it once before and would prefer not to continually reopen."
 
After I had closed the pass (twice) he asked to be included. I did include him but made that request so that I would not be placed in the position of continually adding people after the pass has closed.
 
Somewhat hard for me to see how that is being a condescending prick.
 
I doubt seriously that you will be changing your mind, so I'm going to quit trying,
 
Have a nice day.
 
ETA - I have responded to an inaccurate accusation. 
 
I think this horse has been beaten dead enough.
 
Let's just let it drop and move on.

 

[personal User]

To the members of the Send Lawyers Guns and Money Pass. There has been a lot of discussion that I am sincere in my belief has been healthy for the most part.This pass has degenerated into personal attacks and a lot of negativity. Most of that has been centered around puts/takes and pricing, my willingness to state my belief in my ideas and discuss the relative merits. I probably made it worse when I intended to clarify in hopes of resolving. If I have offended anyone I am sincere in my apology and that includes Ironpeddler and Jonesy.
 
Life is too short and this is supposed to be fun. If I wanted a bunch of negativity in my life I would call my ex-wife.
 
I am not going to make a rule clarification, I am going to make a rule change. All puts/takes of whatever the value are preapproved for the remainder of this pass. Simply post your puts/takes to the thread. I will request that others passers do not disapprove or make critical comments of any passers puts/takes. I want there to be no further negativity in the pass.
 
It is my belief that while errors and problems may happen, that overputs will be balanced by under-puts somewhat and that the basic integrity, knowledge and ability of the passers will win out in the end.
 
I have read the posted rules and do not see this to be in violation of the rules. It is however, a change in the rules of this pass and not the way things are normally done. I actually wanted to do this from the start but Brent advised me no to do so.
 
I will see this pass through to the end. I committed to it and will do so. If you cannot live with a rule change of this nature or for whatever reason wish to leave the pass now is the time to do so. There will be no further rule changes, because this is essentially no rules other than the basic rules posted.
 
This should be about smokes, and integrity. I well know that I am not perfect, but I am trying hard and I am sincere. If my manner offends you, I also am sincerely sorry about that. I do try but do not always achieve.
 
Healthy discussion is good, not bad. But I think we have had enough criticism and negativity, Let's be positive and about smoking for the remainder of the pass.
 
I was sincere in my earlier comments previously in the thread that I believe in the integrity of the members and am confident that the members of the pass have enough integrity, knowledge and ability to rise to the occasion.
 
I hope that the current players will remain.
 
I also hope that while the pass is in progress if any player smokes something from the pass that he post a few lines, not a full review but a short few lines about the smoke to the thread.
 
Let's make this about smokes, integrity and brotherhood.