Send Lawyers, Guns and Money Pass - below 50 RG only- Completed.

[Jonesy]

 
I am not going to make a rule clarification, I am going to make a rule change. All puts/takes of whatever the value are preapproved for the remainder of this pass. Simply post your puts/takes to the thread. I will request that others passers do not disapprove or make critical comments of any passers puts/takes. I want there to be no further negativity in the pass.
 
It is my belief that while errors and problems may happen, that overputs will be balanced by under-puts somewhat and that the basic integrity, knowledge and ability of the passers will win out in the end.
 
I will see this pass through to the end. I committed to it and will do so. If you cannot live with a rule change of this nature or for whatever reason wish to leave the pass now 
Let's make this about smokes, integrity and brotherhood.

First of all, there have been no personal attacks. I called you a condescending prick because that's how I and quite a few others felt like you were acting. If this offends you, I apologize. Now you've gotten two apologies out of me in the same thread which has never happened before. Let's leave the personal stuff between you and I out from this point on and be able to talk civilly about things. At this point, I'm just giving you friendly advice.
 
Now as a member of Cigar Pass, (unbiased to everything else that's happened between us) what you are saying you want to do, you simply cannot. You are too new to put in a "All puts/takes of whatever the value are preapproved for the remainder of this pass" because there are new passers in this pass and they can't learn like this.
 
" I will request that others passers do not disapprove or make critical comments of any passers puts/takes. I want there to be no further negativity in the pass." This is a public forum and everything in a pass can be scrutinized by ANY member of Cigar Pass whether you ask for no input or not.
 
"It is my belief that while errors and problems may happen, that overputs will be balanced by under-puts somewhat and that the basic integrity, knowledge and ability of the passers will win out in the end". Balancing overputs and under puts are ok to an extent, but as a rule, you should NEVER under put in a pass unless it is VERY close. The last part of your statement comes right from my pass which you can't do when you have new passers in the pass.
 
"I have read the posted rules and do not see this to be in violation of the rules". This is why in my opinion, you should HAVE to participate in at least two passes before running your own. This way you will understand that just because it's not written, doesn't mean it's not a rule.
 
 
Now, you say , "But Brian, you said in your rules that all p/t's are pre-approved". Yes I did Ken. BUT that also means the P/T's have to be posted, can be discussed among the other passers, can be questioned by outside members, but they don't have to wait on me to say yea or nay. Like I said. Those guys have 80+ years experience on CP combined for 11 people....they know how to do things and do things right. I put together this list of people to show how smoothly a pass can run. I never put in a rule for no value either.
 
"I don't care what trades you come up with because I'm not putting rules in for certain cigars. All I ask is that if you take a limited or rarer cigar, you replace it with one or make up for it with age and or price". Remember this? It takes care of all of the above so you can't say that you're following in my pass's footsteps, because you aren't

 

[jfields]

To the members of the Send Lawyers Guns and Money Pass. There has been a lot of discussion that I am sincere in my belief has been healthy for the most part.This pass has degenerated into personal attacks and a lot of negativity. Most of that has been centered around puts/takes and pricing, my willingness to state my belief in my ideas and discuss the relative merits. I probably made it worse when I intended to clarify in hopes of resolving. If I have offended anyone I am sincere in my apology and that includes Ironpeddler and Jonesy.
 
Life is too short and this is supposed to be fun. If I wanted a bunch of negativity in my life I would call my ex-wife.
 
I am not going to make a rule clarification, I am going to make a rule change. All puts/takes of whatever the value are preapproved for the remainder of this pass. Simply post your puts/takes to the thread. I will request that others passers do not disapprove or make critical comments of any passers puts/takes. I want there to be no further negativity in the pass.
 
It is my belief that while errors and problems may happen, that overputs will be balanced by under-puts somewhat and that the basic integrity, knowledge and ability of the passers will win out in the end.
 
I have read the posted rules and do not see this to be in violation of the rules. It is however, a change in the rules of this pass and not the way things are normally done. I actually wanted to do this from the start but Brent advised me no to do so.
 
I will see this pass through to the end. I committed to it and will do so. If you cannot live with a rule change of this nature or for whatever reason wish to leave the pass now is the time to do so. There will be no further rule changes, because this is essentially no rules other than the basic rules posted.
 
This should be about smokes, and integrity. I well know that I am not perfect, but I am trying hard and I am sincere. If my manner offends you, I also am sincerely sorry about that. I do try but do not always achieve.
 
Healthy discussion is good, not bad. But I think we have had enough criticism and negativity, Let's be positive and about smoking for the remainder of the pass.
 
I was sincere in my earlier comments previously in the thread that I believe in the integrity of the members and am confident that the members of the pass have enough integrity, knowledge and ability to rise to the occasion.
 
I hope that the current players will remain.
 
I also hope that while the pass is in progress if any player smokes something from the pass that he post a few lines, not a full review but a short few lines about the smoke to the thread.
 
Let's make this about smokes, integrity and brotherhood.

Brian has taken some of this personally and let his emotion get the best of him as evidenced by some of his post. He's acknowledged this both publicly ad privately. I'm hoping future post like the last one will be seen for what they are...... Not negativity, but much needed discussion.

You on the other hand........ I can't figure out if you're going the condescending passive aggressive route, or if you really don't have a firm grip on the written and unwritten time honored CP pass rules.

This is a public forum. Everything should be up for discussion. Good, bad, or indifferent. Especially, when it comes to the rules and opinions of buys, trades, sales, or passes.

 

[grateful1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTR-G9NpGNI

 

[Brickhouse]

 
"It is my belief that while errors and problems may happen, that overputs will be balanced by under-puts somewhat and that the basic integrity, knowledge and ability of the passers will win out in the end". Balancing overputs and under puts are ok to an extent, but as a rule, you should NEVER under put in a pass unless it is VERY close. The last part of your statement comes right from my pass which you can't do when you have new passers in the pass.
 

 
I agree with everything you've said to this point, save this piece, Brian.
 
This brings me back to my post earlier in the pass which you had disagreed with as well.  A +/- needs to be the same on Ps and Ts.  Overage cannot be accepted for that which an underage would not be accepted.  It must be equal.  I think you and I would agree that it needs to be a small percentage so that the pass is not taken advantage of, and the host would set that tolerance, but it needs to be equal.  To suggest that a $1.00 overage, for example is accepted on a cigar in "position 10" but an underage of $1.00 is not, makes no sense to me.
 
The idea for the entire value of the pass is to have it leave and arrive back at the host's house with roughly the same value.  It is not to have it return with a $1.00 increase on average across each cigar position.  Additionally, if I'm in the last spot for the pass, the cigar values may have raised by $1 or $2 over the 15 members and it is no longer the same pass I signed up for.  A pass' value has a slight roller coaster effect.  It goes up and down in each area as it goes along, but never takes a dive or large increase.  It's the hosts job to ensure the median is kept.
 
Yes, if underage of $1.00 is allowed 5 times on the same cigar position, then now a $10 cigar is only at $5...but the host and players ensure that doesn't happen.  If cigar position 10 was downgraded by $1 twice in a row, then the third take of that position should have to be overage or equal.  It's that sort of attention that must be paid in hosting a pass.
 
I think if we are all honest about it, we know that the value of a cigar position doesn't go consistently down or consistently up.  It goes up and down as the pass moves along. 
 
Again, I've been reading this discussion closely, and I agree with everything you've been saying, but with this piece I felt a need to express my opinion.  Overage or underage....they should be the same, and neither should be easier to accept by those playing.  Maybe this is what you are saying as well and I'm just not translating it that way in a post.  I know you're not saying only accept overage, and no underage.  You're saying it needs to be balanced, but I think you're saying to tolerate overage more than underage.  Maybe I'm off.
 
My point of view.

 

[Jonesy]

I agree with you to a point Wyatt, but if this were to be the case, then somehow we would need to figure out a happy medium. I just don't believe you should be able to put in a $25 cigar for a $18 cigar and then because of that put in a $3 cigar for a $10 cigar because "hey, I made an over put on trade 1 so I get the equal value on an under put on trade 2".
 
If you put in a $20 cigar for a $18 cigar you've upped the value of the pass 10%. I think it would be fine if you use that same percentage on an under put AS LONG AS it's under the value of the first trade. So you want to take out a $17 cigar. Apply the 10% devaluation and put in NO LESS THAN a $15.30 cigar to keep things balanced.

There needs to be some kind of protocol for passes that states something similar to this, or we'll have this conversation in every pass forward.

 

[Brickhouse]

I agree with you to a point Wyatt, but if this were to be the case, then somehow we would need to figure out a happy medium. I just don't believe you should be able to put in a $25 cigar for a $18 cigar and then because of that put in a $3 cigar for a $10 cigar because "hey, I made an over put on trade 1 so I get the equal value on an under put on trade 2".

 
Certainly we would both agree a maneuver such as this would not be allowed.  Which is why we must do exactly as you say, figure out a happy medium. 
 
What I'm of opinion is, that happy medium should be equal to overage and underage Ps/Ts.
 

If you put in a $20 cigar for a $18 cigar you've upped the value of the pass 10%. I think it would be fine if you use that same percentage on an under put AS LONG AS it's under the value of the first trade. So you want to take out a $17 cigar. Apply the 10% devaluation and put in NO LESS THAN a $15.30 cigar to keep things balanced.

 
Yep....this is what I'm getting at.  You've just done a better job of illustrating it because I'm no math wiz.
 
Again, this is probably what you've been saying the entire time, I just needed clarification.  It's not so much about dollar overage or underage.  It's about a consistent and fair allowance of both.
 
Thanks

 

[personal User]

These rules seem pretty clear to me.
 
 
Home » Rules of a Pass
 


Rules of a Pass
 
 

Below is a list of general rules of running a cigar pass.  These rules are simply basic rules; the host may add or modify the below rules as he/she chooses.  Be sure that all rules and expectations are clearly stated up front prior to anyone joining the pass.
Rule 1
It is highly recommended that you use the cigar pass spreadsheet when listing your participants addresses and information.  Simply open the Pass Spreadsheet, complete the form, print it and place it in your pass.  This spreadsheet was designed to help make starting/managing a pass easy.
Rule 2
When receiving a cigar pass, it is customary to take up to 3 cigars and put at minimum how many cigars you took.  Cigar’s should be one for one with respect to value.  Never put lesser quality cigars in place of the ones you took.
Rule 3
Keep an eye on the pass as it travels.  If the pass is heading your way and you know you’re not going to be around, inform the host immediately so that he/she can make arrangements to re-route the pass if necessary.
Rule 4
If the cigar pass box requires any work such as adjusting humidity, repackaging, etc please do.  Treat the pass as if it’s your own.
Rule 5
Always be prompt; post a message letting the host and others know that the pass arrived safely.  Be sure to turn around the pass within 2 days.  It’s always more fun when the pass moves quickly.
Rule 6
It’s always a good idea to place the cigars you put in a plastic baggie or cigar bag.  This help ensure that the cigars remain undamaged.
Rule 7
Do not steal anyones property.  That includes markers, humidification devices, etc that may come with the pass.
Rule 8
USPS and UPS are two very good carriers.  Always pay for a confirmation number, and it’s a good idea to insure the pass for what the retail value of the cigars might be.  The host may or may not require insurance.  UPS shipments are automatically insured up to $100.  When shipping the pass to the next participant, post an update in the forum along with the tracking number.

These are just some basic rules. More may be added as necessary.
The host of the pass may specify different rules.
Not every pass will be the same.
Have Fun!​

 

[Jonesy]

You obviously don't "get it". Maybe the smart thing to do would be just to shut this thing down since you don't want to listen to any of us that know what we're doing and go about and change the way we do things here on Cigar Pass.

 

[mmburtch]

 
 
Yes, if underage of $1.00 is allowed 5 times on the same cigar position, then now a $10 cigar is only at $5...but the host and players ensure that doesn't happen.  If cigar position 10 was downgraded by $1 twice in a row, then the third take of that position should have to be overage or equal.  It's that sort of attention that must be paid in hosting a pass.
 
I think if we are all honest about it, we know that the value of a cigar position doesn't go consistently down or consistently up.  It goes up and down as the pass moves along. 

 
Seven and a half years, and this is the first time I have been exposed to this idea, propagating a position from the original line-up.  I've always looked at the current sticks and forgotten the old (other than whining and crying).  
 
I can honestly say I have been bettered by this pass and it's discussions.

 

[personal User]

.... I can't figure out if you're going the condescending passive aggressive route, or if you really don't have a firm grip on the written and unwritten time honored CP pass rules. 
 
I did a good bit of reading and saw everything from a pass where the passer started off with bottles of whiskey to a herf pass where all puts/takes were preapproved. It also appears that all puts and takes are preapproved in Jonesys pass.
 
So, and I don't mean to be condescending but how on earth am I supposed to comply with unwritten rules?
 
There are always going to be various interpretations of unwritten rules. If I read every word of five years of passes my interpretation and what I gleaned from the passes would be different from other people reading the same data,
 
While my delivery of my thoughts has not been as good as I would like and it appears that at times come across as condescending, I assure you of  my sincerety.
 
I sincerely fail to see why there would be such discussions in this thread yet
 

 
 

There must be some confusion/misinterpretation on your end, or a mistake in a post Brian made somewhere. I can tell you with 100% certainty that P/T's have not been already preapproved in Brian's pass.

 

I might have interpreted that wrong but it looks like that is what is said
 
Under Pass Arrives
 
 
"Publicly post your puts & takes, you don't have to wait on approval, your P/T's are pre-approved because every one of you guys are seasoned passers. The only thing I ask is you don't make large over puts that price out the guys at the end. "
 

 
 
If that is fine for one pass why is it not fine for another?
 
Maybe I am misinterpreting but the english seems plain to me.

 

[mmburtch]

 
 
If that is fine for one pass why is it not fine for another?
 
Maybe I am misinterpreting but the english seems plain to me.

 
Try it this way..
 
It is fine for one passer, but not all passers.  
 
Brian's pass is wholly comprised of highly experienced passers.  Yours for example has more than a couple first timers.  

 

[personal User]

I will not shut this pass down. If Rod shuts me down, so be it.

 

[Jonesy]

This is exactly why I don't think the starting a pass rule should not have been changed. It used to be that you would have had to have participated in 2 passes before running one. Just because you've read 5 years of passes doesn't give you the experience you need to run one properly. There have been quite a few of us that have tried to be more than helpful, but you don't want to heed the advice....you want to quote rules. When going in a store and someone is walking in behind you, do you hold the door open for them? I bet you do. But there's no rule saying you have to do that.
 
You're inexperienced and hard headed and that's the problem you're having right now. You may have smoked cigars for the last 45 years, but that doesn't mean you know dick about what goes on here and you're obviously unwilling to listen.

 

[personal User]

.  Yours for example has more than a couple first timers.  

Unwritten rules that are different for new people than for veterans?
 
I do not comprehend unwritten rules that essentially discriminate between people that are new and people that are not.
 
I do not comprehend that high dollar pass rules by a veteran are treated differently than a lower dollar pass with newer people in it.
 
If that is how it is, it is my personal opinion that there is something wrong the with unwritten rules. 
Jonesy, if I could find a ignore function here I would block your posts from my seeing them.
 
I am not going to consider anything further you say for discussion.
 
I will be glad to entertain serious discussion from other participants.

 

[bfreebern]

Damn fellas, we're all adults here, last time I checked. 

 

[mmburtch]

 

.  Yours for example has more than a couple first timers.  

Unwritten rules that are different for new people than for veterans?
 
 

 
Vets have made or tried to make mistakes, and learned from them.  Would you let your 15 year old learn to drive, by them self, on LA freeways?  I'm guessing not. What is being suggested is that there are people in your pass that need to learn how to drive, not just be given a license.

 

[Jonesy]

 

.  Yours for example has more than a couple first timers.  

 

Jonesy, if I could find a ignore function here I would block your posts from my seeing them.
 
I am not going to consider anything further you say for discussion.
 
I will be glad to entertain serious discussion from other participants.
 

I have given you nothing but solid advice about your pass since I apologized to you for calling you a condescending prick (which I now regret doing because I obviously was spot on).
 
This really hurts my feelings because I'm 17 miles from the I-85 EXIT at my house to SC and I would have loved to come down there and smoked a cigar with you!
btw, if you want an ignore button for me, then I request a "disappear" button for you.

Damn fellas, we're all adults here, last time I checked. 

Yea, but even some of the oldest ones can't act like one....

 

[Kingantz]

I had been following Paul's pass; however had not really looked in here.  I read through a couple of the latest posts, and I read Brian would be blocked if possible?  And, the host is being called a condescending prick?  It's sad to see a pass get to this state. 
 
I just went to check out the rules and all the good stuff for this pass, but where are they?

 

[Jonesy]

I had been following Paul's pass; however had not really looked in here.  I read through a couple of the latest posts, and I read Brian would be blocked if possible?  And, the host is being called a condescending prick?  It's sad to see a pass get to this state. 
 
I just went to check out the rules and all the good stuff for this pass, but where are they?

There are none now Greg. P/T's are as you please with no discussion from anyone on them.

 

[personal User]

 

 


.  Yours for example has more than a couple first timers.  

Unwritten rules that are different for new people than for veterans?
 
 

 
Vets have made or tried to make mistakes, and learned from them.  Would you let your 15 year old learn to drive, by them self, on LA freeways?  I'm guessing not. What is being suggested is that there are people in your pass that need to learn how to drive, not just be given a license.
 


Please don't take this as condescending,but people die on freeways. If someone makes an error in a cigar pass we're talking some certain amount of cigars.
 
And so what if newbies make some mistakes. I am absolutely sincere that the members of the pass will rise to the occasion and that any errors would be insignficant in the overall scheme of things.  I am absolutely sincere and in no way being condescending when I say I am impressed by the integrity, brotherhood, knowledge and ability of the membership here and believe that the members of this pass will rise to the occasion in fine manner
 
As far as unwritten rules go, I have a problem with them in general because people wind up interpreting with their own prejudices and preconceived ideas and everyone doesn't interpret them the same. Often, there is enough problem with different interpretations of even written rules.