Well I was wrong.

[Mark Twain]

Neal,

Agreed. The thread should remain open. This pattern seems to go back years. It's important for those involved to step up and step up now. No way should this shit have been allowed to go on for as long as it did.

Folks, if someone stiffs you in a trade and you say nothin' you pass the buck onto the next fella down the line who the guy stiffs, leaving him to say something, which allows the offender to continue to take from the community. It don't matter how well respected the guy. If you get stiffed say something.

 

[Jonesy]

Neal,

Agreed. The thread should remain open. This pattern seems to go back years. It's important for those involved to step up and step up now. No way should this shit have been allowed to go on for as long as it did.

Folks, if someone stiffs you in a trade and you say nothin' you pass the buck onto the next fella down the line who the guy stiffs, leaving him to say something, which allows the offender to continue to take from the community. It don't matter how well respected the guy. If you get stiffed say something.

Exactly Marc. What good is the whole "looking out for the community" premise, if nothing is said until it happens again or is brought up a year later. You can say, "Well, it was Wilkey, he'll end up making it right", but if you try to communicate the problem with him and then there's no response to repeated attempts, it needs to be made public then. This way it doesn't happen to anyone else in the future. Yea, it's better late than never, but how is this looking out for the community?

 

[tone-ny]

Yes this should remain open until it is resolved!

 

[atuck]

This thread is way stupid! I am disappointed in all the sniveling from both ends. I just shake my head as I read. Moki and tone-ny have given the best advice possible on this. I would listen to them & Rod. I'm not even going to click on this thread again.

 

[CoventryCat86]

Good stuff all around. Now all we need is for Sean to take the picture Glad this is working out.

Best,

Joe

Which Sean?

BigMacFU

See pictures from the most recent Quad-State Herf.

 

[Rod]

Bill - I emailed Wilkey your address, that way there will be no mis-communication.

I expect everyone to keep this thread on track, and knock off the name calling. If you have a personal problem with someone, deal with it through email.

 

[ggiese]

BTW....I'm not interested in the cigars anymore. Just wanted to put it out there that not everyone feels the need to run to Rod for every problem. That, and just because you're hearing about something for the first time, doesn't mean it's not true. Even if it happened two weeks, or two years ago.

John, the issue was not me believing that this had happened; the issue was bringing other people into a dispute between Wilkey and CC. There was no reason to bring other people into the situation, unless they did so themselves. The only reason it was done was to start more drama and that is the simple truth. Instead of focusing on rectifying the current problem, CC felt the need to bring other people in, and then stated it was up to those people to reveal themselves. It looks like I wasn't the only one who wanted these other people to come forward either, so yeah ggiese, it looks like mission accomplished huh? Too bad it couldn't have just stopped with CC instead of dragging other people into it?

Hey Mike - mission accomplished!!!

Mike - if, as you say, you believed this happened, and then ENCOURAGED the others to post up - are you not supporting Bill's argument? And YOU, sir, were the one person (i.e. - all by your lonesome) that was on a mission to insist others come forward.

Guess what? (Not that there was any doubt), you were right! It truly is what you "believed".

In other words - you heightened the drama over this issue by continuously challenging Bill and the rest of this community to "put up or shut up" - like your infinite wisdom was going to shut this whole issue down and make Bill look like some kind of fool...

You did an AWESOME job - you accomplished your mission! You've validated what was inferred. You get the gold star in this!

So - is your "victory" as satisfying as you suspected? :sign:




Wilkey - like you've told countless others in the past - step up to the plate - fulfill your obligation - make it right - cut the drama. You (inadvertently or not) started this, Respect this community you "love". Do the right thing and finish it like a "FOG" - with honor, grace and integrity.

 

[jfields]

Neal,

Agreed. The thread should remain open. This pattern seems to go back years. It's important for those involved to step up and step up now. No way should this shit have been allowed to go on for as long as it did.

Folks, if someone stiffs you in a trade and you say nothin' you pass the buck onto the next fella down the line who the guy stiffs, leaving him to say something, which allows the offender to continue to take from the community. It don't matter how well respected the guy. If you get stiffed say something.

Exactly Marc. What good is the whole "looking out for the community" premise, if nothing is said until it happens again or is brought up a year later. You can say, "Well, it was Wilkey, he'll end up making it right", but if you try to communicate the problem with him and then there's no response to repeated attempts, it needs to be made public then. This way it doesn't happen to anyone else in the future. Yea, it's better late than never, but how is this looking out for the community?

Come on Brian! you and I have had this conversation before when we were new. You were of the same opinion that no good could come out of similar situations for the likes of us. Were we wrong? Perhaps!
I gave Wilkey the benefit of the doubt at first, even though my gut told me he didn't forget. Once again, it wasn't until last July that Brian and I started to put two and two together. At that point I figured, it's almost two years old. "Do I let this one lay, or is everyone going to wonder why this took so long?"
#1 and I discussed this, and I trusted him as one of the most intuitive people I have ever known. He said that this will come to light in it's own way, very soon. Looks like he was right.

I'm of the opinion that Wilkey owes an asst. of cigars to someone on Brian's behalf to settle that debt as well. Perhaps some new guy that gets it?

 

[Ginseng]

I've received Bill's address from Rod. I've asked Rod to receive my cigars, and then relay them on to him. Rod has agreed. That way, Rod knows what I sent. And frankly, it's come down to this. I don't trust Bill. Isn't that sad what this has come down to? The biggest, most vindictive, unforgiving, contemptible, unrepentantly witch-hunterrific fuckin' pissing match I've ever had the displeasure to have witnessed. Years of work, thousands of hours of labor. The friendships made and questions answered. In the end, it doesn't grant you an ounce of consideration. You could have just talked to me, people. I may be ousted in disgrace, but is this a better place now because of either 1) how this transpired or 2) painting me a scumbag, cheat, liar, "not one of us so gotta be one of them so out the fuckin' door with you sumbitch?"

Fellows, this thread is a mess. If you've aired here that I've stiffed you...then please follow up with an email forward through the board messaging system as, surprise, surprise, I don't come around much any more. Please, help me help you get this resolved. To date, I have received no PMs or email forwards on the matter. I am turning off my PMs. And soon I will turn off my email forwarding as well. This is what happens when you clean out your desk and move on. I'm ready. I suppose the attacks and vitriol will rage on. I expect that it will...then a few weeks or months from now, we'll have forgotten and it will start all over again. Maybe you should ask yourselves what is it that has come to define the CigarPass experience as "the internet's friendliest cigar community."

Wilkey

BTW, Once I'm gone, perhaps you guys should ask yourselves...who's going to be next?

 

[BobbyRitz]

1. the state of being a brother or brothers
2. an association of men united in a common interest, work, creed, etc., as a fraternity, religious order, or labor union
3. a belief in, or feeling of, unity and cooperation among men or among all people

Can someone remind me the word associated with the above definition?

Wilkey made a mistake. One that seems to have happened a few times. He should rectify those mistakes as soon as practicable. But the drama here is mind-boggling. Where is the Brotherhood? Isn't that what cigar communities are supposedly built upon? Andrew has given the best advice out of all the posts in this thread...and noone seems to care or have made the decision not to accept it. I long for the day when there isn't bickering and name-calling here at CigarPass. I am a member of several forums and this kind of behavior only seems to exist here? Why is that?

Any forum is a cross section of society. Some rich, some poor and every nationality and religion I'm sure is here and here in spades. The common bond IS the supposed Brotherhood. Why the boorish behavior?

I've met many of members of CP and I hold those experiences among some of the better cigar moments I've had. Be it drinking scotch and smoking cigars with Ray, Anthony, Rob, Scot and others; or drinking wine with David, Tom, Sean, Dan, Josh, Phil, Cory and countless others. Those events reminded me of what Brotherhood is all about.

 

[JHolmes763]

Instead of focusing on rectifying the current problem, CC felt the need to bring other people in, and then stated it was up to those people to reveal themselves.

This is the way it should be, imo. What right does CC (or anyone) have to drop other people's names into an issue that they may or may not want to be involved in? Or what if something had been settled behind the scenes w/o CC knowing about it? I'm glad more of the scenarios came into the light so that we know "the rest of the story", ultimately, though.

-John

 

[ggiese]

I've received Bill's address from Rod. I've asked Rod to receive my cigars, and then relay them on to him. Rod has agreed. That way, Rod knows what I sent. And frankly, it's come down to this. I don't trust Bill. Isn't that sad what this has come down to? The biggest, most vindictive, unforgiving, contemptible, unrepentantly witch-hunterrific fuckin' pissing match I've ever had the displeasure to have witnessed. Years of work, thousands of hours of labor. The friendships made and questions answered. In the end, it doesn't grant you an ounce of consideration. You could have just talked to me, people. I may be ousted in disgrace, but is this a better place now because of either 1) how this transpired or 2) painting me a scumbag, cheat, liar, "not one of us so gotta be one of them so out the fuckin' door with you sumbitch?"

Fellows, this thread is a mess. If you've aired here that I've stiffed you...then please follow up with an email forward through the board messaging system as, surprise, surprise, I don't come around much any more. Please, help me help you get this resolved. To date, I have received no PMs or email forwards on the matter. I am turning off my PMs. And soon I will turn off my email forwarding as well. This is what happens when you clean out your desk and move on. I'm ready. I suppose the attacks and vitriol will rage on. I expect that it will...then a few weeks or months from now, we'll have forgotten and it will start all over again. Maybe you should ask yourselves what is it that has come to define the CigarPass experience as "the internet's friendliest cigar community."

Wilkey

BTW, Once I'm gone, perhaps you guys should ask yourselves...who's going to be next?

Oh, boy...

So Bill is wrong? Truly - is that what I'm reading in this???

wilkey - this one single post has totally changed my opinion of you. Prior to this - I had thought much more of who you are and what you represented. I was wrong...

"the internet's friendliest cigar community." has been dealt a VERY significant blow in your words and actions. You say one thing - you do something entirely (i.e. 180 degrees divergent) different. You are not to be believed. What you've written were fairy tails - pure fiction - totally for the satisfaction of the audience with no basis in fact.

Good luck to you sir - I sincerely hope some good comes of this and your reflections of your time here are not be clouded by your ego.

 

[Ginseng]

John,

I had a very disturbing exchange with Brian months prior to his passing. I will not sully a deadman's name but suffice it to say that when I offered to send him my remaining AVO22s, he declined. He closed the door on any chance that I could make it right for him. He did not pass it on. He did not say, do something good with them. He effectively said keep them and choke on them. It is a debt that I was told that I would not be allowed to fulfill. He did not forgive me and I remain, unforgiven. Now he is gone and I am left with the scarlet letter because of it.

I will say again, that I have never received any "repeated attempts to make things right." Never. Nothing ever of the form "hey, remember those cigars you owed me, could you send them on down?" Not from you or from Brian other than that one, final exchange before he died.

Funny, I never thought for a day that you'd seize an opportunity like this to stick a knife in my back, John. I'm saddened but perhaps not as surprised as I should be.

Wilkey

 

[Devil Doc]

Wilkey, you have issues and should seek professional help.

Doc.

 

[ggiese]

John,

I had a very disturbing exchange with Brian months prior to his passing. I will not sully a deadman's name but suffice it to say that when I offered to send him my remaining AVO22s, he declined. He closed the door on any chance that I could make it right for him. He did not pass it on. He did not say, do something good with them. He effectively said keep them and choke on them. It is a debt that I was told that I would not be allowed to fulfill. He did not forgive me and I remain, unforgiven. Now he is gone and I am left with the scarlet letter because of it.

I will say again, that I have never received any "repeated attempts to make things right." Never. Nothing ever of the form "hey, remember those cigars you owed me, could you send them on down?" Not from you or from Brian other than that one, final exchange before he died.

Funny, I never thought for a day that you'd seize an opportunity like this to stick a knife in my back, John. I'm saddened but perhaps not as surprised as I should be.

Wilkey

So you KNEW things were not right between you and Brian - you KNEW you needed to somehow "fix" things between you. And you - as a learned and intelligent and "caring" (benevolent) individual you are - a person of significant stature in the community - could not figure out a way to make it right to settle the disagreement behind the scenes and in a way that would not have brought this issue to where it is today? Bringing shame to you and this community?

Seriously???

No, wilkey - it would not have been easy. It would have been difficult. But it was, by no means, unachievable. More importantly - your tenure and reputation would have made it FAR easier to accomplish than someone of less stature. People in this community would have rallied to your cause to help you accomplish your goal. Instead - you chose to let the opportunity pass and are now wearing your "Scarlet Letter". You should...

You, sir, chose your path to this place we are at now. Bill, John, Brian all might have influenced the course, but you ultimately chose the path. And you have the opportunity to choose another one now.

No matter what your choice - admittedly - it will not easy.

Before closing this out - let me please quote "Craig":

Ginseng: On Dec. 17, you posted that you have seen the Buddha. However, there is no Buddha-nature on cigar forums. You have seen a false Buddha. Find your own path between the east and west rivers, and you will kill both the Buddha and your parents.

Good luck, sir...

 

[CoventryCat86]

Instead of focusing on rectifying the current problem, CC felt the need to bring other people in, and then stated it was up to those people to reveal themselves.

This is the way it should be, imo. What right does CC (or anyone) have to drop other people's names into an issue that they may or may not want to be involved in? Or what if something had been settled behind the scenes w/o CC knowing about it? I'm glad more of the scenarios came into the light so that we know "the rest of the story", ultimately, though.

-John

John,

You quoted a post from mike that is wrong. I never "stated it was up to those people to reveal themselves." I also didn't "drop other people's names into an issue" as you said so why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said? That's just plain wrong.

 

[Wurm]

Instead of focusing on rectifying the current problem, CC felt the need to bring other people in, and then stated it was up to those people to reveal themselves.

This is the way it should be, imo. What right does CC (or anyone) have to drop other people's names into an issue that they may or may not want to be involved in? Or what if something had been settled behind the scenes w/o CC knowing about it? I'm glad more of the scenarios came into the light so that we know "the rest of the story", ultimately, though.

-John

John,

You quoted a post from mike that is wrong. I never "stated it was up to those people to reveal themselves." I also didn't "drop other people's names into an issue" as you said so why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said? That's just plain wrong.

Read it again Bill, he was agreeing with you. He said the way you handled it was correct.

 

[JHolmes763]

Instead of focusing on rectifying the current problem, CC felt the need to bring other people in, and then stated it was up to those people to reveal themselves.

This is the way it should be, imo. What right does CC (or anyone) have to drop other people's names into an issue that they may or may not want to be involved in? Or what if something had been settled behind the scenes w/o CC knowing about it? I'm glad more of the scenarios came into the light so that we know "the rest of the story", ultimately, though.

You quoted a post from mike that is wrong. I never "stated it was up to those people to reveal themselves." I also didn't "drop other people's names into an issue" as you said so why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said? That's just plain wrong.

I was actually disagreeing with what Mike said, but I did not present it very well. You did mention "other people", which is fine as those were the facts as you know them. I didn't say you dropped anyone's name, either, quite the opposite. I was saying it'd be out of line to drag other people, by name, into the situation. You didn't do that. I was actually agreeing with the way you handled it. I know, I'm shocked, too.

 

[Devil Doc]

The way people, who don't even know him, have been taking shots at him, ya can't blame Bill for being a bit gun shy.

Doc.

 

[CoventryCat86]

I was actually disagreeing with what Mike said, but I did not present it very well. You did mention "other people", which is fine as those were the facts as you know them. I didn't say you dropped anyone's name, either, quite the opposite. I was saying it'd be out of line to drag other people, by name, into the situation. You didn't do that. I was actually agreeing with the way you handled it. I know, I'm shocked, too.

:laugh:
I'm sorry John, I misunderstood you. I get it now, thanks! :thumbs: And thanks to Wurm as well.